Explain or Defend This Miracle

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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William
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Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #1

Post by William »

A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws.[2] Such an event may be attributed to a supernatural being (especially a deity), magic, a miracle worker, a saint, or a religious leader.

Informally, the word miracle is often used to characterise any beneficial event that is statistically unlikely but not contrary to the laws of nature, such as surviving a natural disaster, or simply a "wonderful" occurrence, regardless of likelihood. Some coincidences may be seen as miracles.


I thought it would be interesting to have a place where claimed miracles [specifically biblical] can be analyzed through scientific method to establish if there may be an explanation regarding any claimed miracle, which can be shown to be able to occur through natural causes rather than supernatural ones, thus establishing that the claimed miracle is not really a miracle at all.

My first choice is the following.


Image

The Holy Fire

Description from within the Orthodox faith
Orthodox tradition holds that the Holy Fire happens annually on the day preceding Orthodox Pascha (Orthodox Easter). During this time, blue light is said to emit within Jesus Christ's tomb, rising from the marble slab covering the stone bed believed to be that upon which Jesus' body is to have been placed for burial. The marble slab is now in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City of Jerusalem. The light is believed to form a column of fire, from which candles are lit. This fire is then used to light the candles of the clergy and pilgrims in attendance. The fire is also said to spontaneously light other lamps and candles around the church.[2][3] Pilgrims and clergy say that the Holy Fire does not burn them.[4][5]

While the Patriarch is inside the chapel kneeling in front of the stone, there is darkness but far from silence outside. One hears a rather loud mumbling, and the atmosphere is very tense. When the Patriarch comes out with the two candles lit and shining brightly in the darkness, a roar of jubilation resounds in the Church. [Link]

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #11

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

[Replying to William in post #10]

You said "A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws" so the event that led to the existence of natural/scientific laws must qualify as a miracle since we can't attribute the existence of scientific laws to scientific laws; a thing can't serve to explain its own existence.

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Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #12

Post by William »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #11]

"A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws" is simply the common definition of a "miracle"

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #13

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

William wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:38 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #11]

"A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws" is simply the common definition of a "miracle"
Right and so by that definition we can reason that the existence of laws of nature, laws of science must qualify as a miracle, this seems like an unavoidable consequence of the definition to me.

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Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #14

Post by William »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:44 pm
William wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:38 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #11]

"A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws" is simply the common definition of a "miracle"
Right and so by that definition we can reason that the existence of laws of nature, laws of science must qualify as a miracle, this seems like an unavoidable consequence of the definition to me.
Indeed. The question posed is along the lines of;

Q: Is the idea of a "miracle" as defined, an acceptable concept to adopt as true?

Therefore, before one can 'reason' the 'unavoidable consequence' one first has to establish if the concept of a miracle [re accompanying definition] is even true.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #15

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

William wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:14 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:44 pm
William wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:38 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #11]

"A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws" is simply the common definition of a "miracle"
Right and so by that definition we can reason that the existence of laws of nature, laws of science must qualify as a miracle, this seems like an unavoidable consequence of the definition to me.
Indeed. The question posed is along the lines of;

Q: Is the idea of a "miracle" as defined, an acceptable concept to adopt as true?

Therefore, before one can 'reason' the 'unavoidable consequence' one first has to establish if the concept of a miracle [re accompanying definition] is even true.
It is a mystery ultimately, I do hold that I regard my own existence and awareness and cognition as a miracle, the very idea of mechanistically "explaining" my own existence seems to lead to madness!

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Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #16

Post by William »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:22 pm
William wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:14 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:44 pm
William wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:38 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #11]

"A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws" is simply the common definition of a "miracle"
Right and so by that definition we can reason that the existence of laws of nature, laws of science must qualify as a miracle, this seems like an unavoidable consequence of the definition to me.
Indeed. The question posed is along the lines of;

Q: Is the idea of a "miracle" as defined, an acceptable concept to adopt as true?

Therefore, before one can 'reason' the 'unavoidable consequence' one first has to establish if the concept of a miracle [re accompanying definition] is even true.
It is a mystery ultimately, I do hold that I regard my own existence and awareness and cognition as a miracle, the very idea of mechanistically "explaining" my own existence seems to lead to madness!
On the contrary. The very idea of my existence being explained as something other than a magicians illusion, is liberating. Perhaps we mean the same thing. I say "liberating" while you say "madness".

Perhaps in that sense, the ability to keep the illusion viable is what protects you from suffering some kind of lapse in protection.

But anyway - the thread subject is about scientifically explaining so-called miracles, so if you regard your own existence and awareness and cognition as a "miracle" - you are claiming that there is no ability of scientific investigation which can explain 'you'.

I would suppose that the first thing necessary for this to be testable, would be for you to define what you mean by 'you'...

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #17

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

William wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:40 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:22 pm
William wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:14 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:44 pm
William wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:38 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #11]

"A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws" is simply the common definition of a "miracle"
Right and so by that definition we can reason that the existence of laws of nature, laws of science must qualify as a miracle, this seems like an unavoidable consequence of the definition to me.
Indeed. The question posed is along the lines of;

Q: Is the idea of a "miracle" as defined, an acceptable concept to adopt as true?

Therefore, before one can 'reason' the 'unavoidable consequence' one first has to establish if the concept of a miracle [re accompanying definition] is even true.
It is a mystery ultimately, I do hold that I regard my own existence and awareness and cognition as a miracle, the very idea of mechanistically "explaining" my own existence seems to lead to madness!
On the contrary. The very idea of my existence being explained as something other than a magicians illusion, is liberating. Perhaps we mean the same thing. I say "liberating" while you say "madness".

Perhaps in that sense, the ability to keep the illusion viable is what protects you from suffering some kind of lapse in protection.

But anyway - the thread subject is about scientifically explaining so-called miracles, so if you regard your own existence and awareness and cognition as a "miracle" - you are claiming that there is no ability of scientific investigation which can explain 'you'.

I would suppose that the first thing necessary for this to be testable, would be for you to define what you mean by 'you'...
What is this "testable"? in the case of miracles (not subject to or driven by rules) a true miracle cannot be tested.

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Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #18

Post by William »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #17]
But anyway - the thread subject is about scientifically explaining so-called miracles, so if you regard your own existence and awareness and cognition as a "miracle" - you are claiming that there is no ability of scientific investigation which can explain 'you'.

I would suppose that the first thing necessary for this to be testable, would be for you to define what you mean by 'you'...
What is this "testable"?
Already explained.
in the case of miracles (not subject to or driven by rules) a true miracle cannot be tested.
Are you claiming that you cannot be tested, because you are this thing you call a 'true miracle'?

Fascinating...

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #19

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

William wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:39 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #17]
But anyway - the thread subject is about scientifically explaining so-called miracles, so if you regard your own existence and awareness and cognition as a "miracle" - you are claiming that there is no ability of scientific investigation which can explain 'you'.

I would suppose that the first thing necessary for this to be testable, would be for you to define what you mean by 'you'...
What is this "testable"?
Already explained.
in the case of miracles (not subject to or driven by rules) a true miracle cannot be tested.
Are you claiming that you cannot be tested, because you are this thing you call a 'true miracle'?

Fascinating...
If miracles are acts of God that occur as and when God decides, then we cannot test for them. If these events are not driven by causality or laws, but by God's will then they are not reproducible in any scientific way.

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Re: Explain or Defend This Miracle

Post #20

Post by William »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:55 pm
William wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:39 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #17]
But anyway - the thread subject is about scientifically explaining so-called miracles, so if you regard your own existence and awareness and cognition as a "miracle" - you are claiming that there is no ability of scientific investigation which can explain 'you'.

I would suppose that the first thing necessary for this to be testable, would be for you to define what you mean by 'you'...
What is this "testable"?
Already explained.
in the case of miracles (not subject to or driven by rules) a true miracle cannot be tested.
Are you claiming that you cannot be tested, because you are this thing you call a 'true miracle'?

Fascinating...
If miracles are acts of God that occur as and when God decides, then we cannot test for them. If these events are not driven by causality or laws, but by God's will then they are not reproducible in any scientific way.
How convenient.
GM: Individual Actions
The Perfect Moment
Square and Compass
Enjoy Progress
The external voice
A Major Lotto win
Meaningful coincidence
Let yourself be led
The Unconscious

William: There is a lot to unpack here.
Learning to be conscious of the unconscious so that one may then recognize various impulses and where the originate from.
In a sense, this is the science of the mind I am attempting to explain to Sherlock. Things may indeed appear to be so mystical as to be of another universe entirely...and are thus given the title of being a Miracle...

GM: Chamber Of Self
The Moment
Provenance [the place of origin or earliest known history of something. the beginning of something's existence; something's origin. ]
Adversary [one's opponent in a contest, conflict, or dispute.]
Persevere
Cultivate
Cleanliness
Self-acceptance
Universe
'The Dream Team'

William: Yes - working on understanding the complexity of using science to understand the self. One can fob it off...as Sherlock appears to want to do by referring to his existing as 'miraculous'.
The idea/belief enables one to side-step having to do the work...

GM: Mystical
Judicious
Confirmation bias
Encounters
Learn how to deactivate all internal triggers...
We go through together
Supernatural
"The Light in The Dark Everyone a great spark every one of us all here together"
Natural

William: Yes - there is no difference so there is no need to add 'super' in front of 'natural'
The separating of "GOD" from the dominant reality of the physical universe isn't helpful as it lacks the ability to explain ones existence without adding the mysterious [and scientifically impossible to measure] 'miracle' to the equation.
Such is a handy device for side-stepping - nothing more.
{SOURCE}

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