A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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John Bauer
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A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Post #1

Post by John Bauer »

I am trying to construct a continuum of the different views regarding origins and would like some suggestions and feedback on constructing this thing. Maybe you think the order should be different, maybe I missed one or two perspectives, etc.

Here's what I've hammered out so far:

A. Theism
----- I. Creationist
---------- 1. Young-earth creationist
--------------- a. Flat Earth Geocentrist
--------------- b. Round Earth Geocentrist
--------------- c. Round Earth Heliocentrist
---------- 2. Old-earth creationist
--------------- a. Gap creationist
--------------- b. Day-age creationist
-------------------- i. Progressive creationist
--------------- c. Evolutionary creationist
---------- 3. Intelligent design proponent
B. Deism
----- I. Theistic evolutionist
C. Atheism
----- I. Evolutionary naturalist

Updated to add: Revised list (February 13, 2021):

A. Theism
----- I. Creationist
---------- 1. Young-earth creationist
--------------- a. Flat-earth geocentrist
--------------- b. Round-earth geocentrist
---------- 2. Old-earth creationist
--------------- a. Gap creationist
--------------- b. Day-age creationist
-------------------- i. Progressive creationist
--------------- c. Evolutionary creationist
--------------- d. Intelligent design
----- II. Evolutionist (i.e., theistic evolution)
B. Deism
----- I. Evolutionist (i.e., deistic evolution)
C. Atheism
----- I. Evolutionist (i.e., naturalistic evolution)
Last edited by John Bauer on Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Post #2

Post by Tcg »

Tcg wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:04 am
John Bauer wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:06 am I am trying to construct a continuum of the different views regarding origins and would like some suggestions and feedback on constructing this thing. Maybe you think the order should be different, maybe I missed one or two perspectives, etc.

Here's what I've hammered out so far:

A. Theism
----- I. Creationist
---------- 1. Young-earth creationist
--------------- a. Flat Earth Geocentrist
--------------- b. Round Earth Geocentrist
--------------- c. Round Earth Heliocentrist
---------- 2. Old-earth creationist
--------------- a. Gap creationist
--------------- b. Day-age creationist
-------------------- i. Progressive creationist
--------------- c. Evolutionary creationist
---------- 3. Intelligent design proponent
B. Deism
----- I. Theistic evolutionist
C. Atheism
----- I. Evolutionary naturalist
It seems that some Theists are also Theistic evolutionists. Perhaps you have that covered with the term "Evolutionary creationists?" Are there distinctions between the two?

Edited to add: While doing a bit of research I came across the term "Deistic evolutionist." I'm not sure if it is truly distinct from these other two or not.

I also wonder if the three subheadings to "Young-earth creationists" are actually variants of creationism or rather just different views on the structure of our solar system.


Tcg

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Re: A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Post #3

Post by Thomas123 »

John Bauer "Here's what I've hammered out so far:"


Good hammering, JB!

Can things really be that simple and compartmentalised? Can I be a fly in the ointment and suggest that there is more written on the back of your page than that which is written on the front.

Does the egg reflect the chicken or does the chicken reflect the egg? Do I reflect creation or does creation reflect me? Is neither the actual truth?It appears to me to be beyond argument that conjecture regarding our position is impossibly difficult. Yes you can hold the various positions that you refer to JB, but any one of them is as frivolous as the next. They are chess strategies to someone who believes that chess contains real conflict.
What category am I in?
What category would you apply to believers in consciousness alone.?
What about people who believe in a denial of anything resembling a created reality?
You may have the phone book in alphabetical order but you are missing the section with the area codes.

I commend your work on this thread and I am not intending to trivialize the intricate nature attached to the combilation of your catalogue.

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Re: A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Post #4

Post by Miles »

John Bauer wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:06 am I am trying to construct a continuum of the different views regarding origins and would like some suggestions and feedback on constructing this thing. Maybe you think the order should be different, maybe I missed one or two perspectives, etc.

Here's what I've hammered out so far:

A. Theism
----- I. Creationist
---------- 1. Young-earth creationist
--------------- a. Flat Earth Geocentrist
--------------- b. Round Earth Geocentrist
--------------- c. Round Earth Heliocentrist
---------- 2. Old-earth creationist
--------------- a. Gap creationist
--------------- b. Day-age creationist
-------------------- i. Progressive creationist
--------------- c. Evolutionary creationist

B. Deism
----- I. Deistic evolutionist
C. Atheism
----- I. Evolutionary naturalist
If I may.

A. Theism
----- I. Creationist
---------- 1. Young-earth creationist
--------------- A. Flat Earth Geocentrist
--------------- B. Round Earth Geocentrist
--------------- C Round Earth Heliocentrist
-------------------- a. Intelligent design proponent
---------- 2. Old-earth creationist
--------------- A. Gap creationist
--------------- B. Day-age creationist
-------------------- a. Progressive creationist
--------------- C. Evolutionary creationist
----II. Evolutionist

B. Deism
----- I. Deistic evolutionist

C. Atheism
----- I. Evolutionary naturalist


.

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Re: A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Post #5

Post by John Bauer »

Tcg wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:10 am
It seems that some theists are also theistic evolutionists. Perhaps you have that covered with the term "evolutionary creationists?" Are there distinctions between the two?
Yes, theists who accept evolution are described here as evolutionary creationists. Because they are theists, they are creationists almost by definition—because, contra deism, a theist holds to the classical conception of God as interacting with or intervening in the natural world and the human realm (classical theism).

Theistic evolutionists take a more deistic stance, where God "front-loaded" creation with everything needed to achieve his design and purpose, got the ball rolling, and then went hands-off, letting nature unfold independently (e.g., Howard J. van Till, "The Fully Gifted Creation," in J. P. Moreland and John Mark Reynolds, eds., Three Views on Creation and Evolution (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999). Those who believe that nature is independent of God, or that God does not interact with or intervene in the natural world, are classified as deists for my purposes here (without ignoring the possibility that these hairs could be split further).

The following is from BioLogos: "[Theistic evolution] has at times been associated with the idea that God created the world and all the natural laws but is no longer actively governing or involved in the cosmos. This is very different from how most [evolutionary creationists] understand God's involvement. In the BioLogos community we affirm the biblical miracles (most centrally the Resurrection), believe God answers prayer, and recognize that God works providentially through natural processes to accomplish his purposes." ("What is Evolutionary Creation?" Common Questions, BioLogos, May 8, 2019. Scroll down to "‘Evolutionary Creation’ is distinct from ‘Theistic Evolution’.")

As Denis Lamoureux expressed the matter (emphasis mine):
.
The most important word in the term "evolutionary creation" is the noun "creation." These Christian evolutionists are first and foremost thoroughly committed and unapologetic creationists. They believe that the world is a creation that is absolutely dependent for every instant of its existence on the will and grace of the Creator. The qualifying word in this category is the adjective "evolutionary," indicating simply the method through which the Lord made the cosmos and living organisms. This view of origins is often referred to as theistic evolution. However, such a word arrangement places the process of evolution as the primary term, and makes the Creator secondary as merely a qualifying adjective. Such an inversion in priority is unacceptable to me and other evolutionary creationists.

-- Denis Lamoureux, "Evolutionary Creation: Moving Beyond the Evolution Versus Creation Debate," Christian Higher Education 9, no. 1 (2010), 29.
.
Tcg wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:10 am
Edited to add: While doing a bit of research I came across the term "Deistic evolutionist." I'm not sure if it is truly distinct from these other two or not.
If the person holds to classical theism, then he would be considered an evolutionary creationist for my purposes here, because for him nature does not unfold apart from God; it is not "front-loaded" by God who then stands back. That is a more deistic view.

Tcg wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:10 am
I also wonder if the three subheadings to "Young-earth creationists" are actually variants of creationism or rather just different views on the structure of our solar system.
Both. They all believe the world and universe are less than 10,000 years old.

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Re: A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Post #6

Post by John Bauer »

Thomas123 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Can things really be that simple and compartmentalised?
It's just taxonomy, Thomas. There are always exceptions, fuzzy boundaries, and complications. "Green" is clearly green and "yellow" is clearly yellow—until you start looking closer at the edges. Is that greenish yellow, or yellowish green? Where does green end and yellow start? And yet "green" and "yellow" are helpful distinctions, despite the complications of trying to classify these colors.

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Re: A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Post #7

Post by Thomas123 »

continuum
a continuous sequence in which adjacent elements are not perceptibly different from each other, but the extremes are quite distinct.

sequence
a particular order in which related things follow each other. ..eg..
"the content of the programme should follow a logical sequence"

.............
Are we to assume that your arranged order is sequential in that 2 is closer to 1 than 3 is.
You talk about nuances of shade but surely your numerical list is nothing except a lithmus test for your own starting bias. That bias appears to create presumptions of arrangement.Perhaps I miss the point of the exercise, JB.

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Re: A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Post #8

Post by John Bauer »

Thomas123 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:52 pm
Are we to assume that your arranged order is sequential, in that 2 is closer to 1 than 3 is?
That's the idea, yes.

Thomas123 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:52 pm
You talk about nuances of shade but surely your numerical list is nothing except a litmus test for your own starting bias. That bias appears to create presumptions of arrangement. Perhaps I miss the point of the exercise, JB.
Indeed, perhaps you do.

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Re: A Creation/Evolution Continuum

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Post by John Bauer »

Miles wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:49 pm
If I may. [...]
Why do you have "intelligent design" as a young-earth creationist view? According to my reading of the literature, the majority of ID proponents are old-earth creationists, and some (e.g., Michael Behe) even accept much of evolutionary theory.

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Re: A Creation/Evolution Continuum

Post #10

Post by Tcg »

John Bauer wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:31 am
Miles wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:49 pm
If I may. [...]
Why do you have "intelligent design" as a young-earth creationist view? According to my reading of the literature, the majority of ID proponents are old-earth creationists, and some (e.g., Michael Behe) even accept much of evolutionary theory.
This Michael Behe?

In his career he has authored over 40 technical papers and two books, Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution and The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism, which argue that living system at the molecular level are best explained as being the result of deliberate intelligent design. Most recently, in Darwin Devolves, Behe advances his argument, presenting new research that offers a startling reconsideration of how Darwin’s mechanism works, weakening the theory’s validity even more.

https://www.discovery.org/p/behe/
What aspect of the evolutionary theory does Michael Behe accept?
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