If Science Revealed God

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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If Science Revealed God

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

Question for Debate: If science actually proved God, would you change the way you lived your life?

And if so, why? Also, what would it be based upon? If it just so happens that the person in front of the computer posting as Purple Knight created the universe, do I gain any special moral credibility from that action? The way I see it, no, I don't. If I created the universe, so what? Your parents created you, and if they're bad people who want you to do bad things, you can still (and should, to my mind) say no.

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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #51

Post by Miles »

2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:52 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:08 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:48 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:15 pm .

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:17 pm
Question for Debate: If science actually proved God, would you change the way you lived your life?

Answer: It would depend on which god science happened to prove.

If it's Athena, the Greek virgin goddess of intelligence, arts, wisdom and peace, I would likely be content and go on my merry way. As would I be okay with Odin, who's associated with death, healing, knowledge and poetry. But if it's Jehovah, the brutal, immoral, and inhumane god of Christianity, you'd probably find me cowering in a dark corner.



.
I think this why a good God deliberately obscures Himself from non-believers.
Why? because it's too difficult for an omnipotent god to convert them. Or does he simply keep them around, as-is for, entertainment? My guess is door number 2.
Or maybe there is a third option; He leaves it to us to decide on the relationship we want with Him.
Something we're suppose to divine while he deliberately obscures himself from us. Nice little handicap we've been handed. Thanks, god.

2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:48 pmFrom what I can make out, the thinking is, He wants us to love Him as He loves us, and voluntarily, not by compulsion. Even a God who is perfect in every way, if He was ever objectively proven to exist, would be a dreadful dictator. We would simply have nowhere to hide in our imperfection. And if God was ever proven that would be as compulsory as it is possible to imagine.
Miles wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:15 pmI don't think compulsion has to figure into it all. How about simple old-fashion convincing? Surely god's mind is far superior to that of any man's and it wouldn't take him but a moment to impress upon the renegade non-believer the truth of his existence and worthiness, whatever that may be.

Is Jesus not enough for you, then?
I'm not even convince there was a singular person whom all the tales were spun around. The tales, events, and sayings of Jesus may have swirled around several people. Image However, for sake of discussion I almost always consider Jesus to be a single person.


.

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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #52

Post by 2ndRateMind »

brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:00 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:48 pm Even a God who is perfect in every way, if He was ever objectively proven to exist, would be a dreadful dictator.
That seems to speak directly to the nature of God rather than us knowing for sure that he was real. Based on descriptions in the Bible, he is a dreadful dictator as far as we already know.
Sure. From the Old Testament. Then came Jesus, and He corrected the misapprehensions.
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:48 pm We would simply have nowhere to hide in our imperfection.
brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:00 pmWhy do we need to hide? Do the imperfect believers who claim to know that God exists have anywhere to hide?...
We can always hide in doubt, scepticism, even cynicism.
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:48 pm And if an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God was ever proven that would be as compulsory as it is possible to imagine.
brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:00 pmYou are not compelled to honour, respect or even worship anyone simply because they are powerful. Sure, they can threaten to annihilate you, but in that case they would not deserve such regard anyway.
Indeed not. The honour, respect and worship arises naturally out of familiarity with Him.
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:48 pm So, He exists for those who love him, and provides us with plenty of subjective evidence that we are not wrong. But first you have to take that leap of faith, and believe.
brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:00 pmAnd if you don't love him does that mean he doesn't exist? If he gives us plenty of subjective evidence to prove he exists, why not go the whole hog...Why should anyone take your advise over anyone else of a different religious persuasion?
He still exists, but, as I have tried to say, hides from those who do not want a relationship with Him. As for my advice, I can merely offer my experiences as a 'for example'. The route I took worked for me, but we are a diverse species comprised of diverse cultures. I dare say other routes work for other people.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #53

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Miles wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:15 pm I'm not even convinced there was a singular person whom all the tales were spun around. The tales, events, and sayings of Jesus may have swirled around several people. Image However, for sake of discussion I almost always consider Jesus to be a single person.
Well, we have the evidence of of the Gospels, which, though they do not always concur exactly, seem to be broadly consistent. But if you think they are biased, check out the Roman historian Tacitus, The Annals (circa 116AD) book 15 chapter 44, in which the Crucifixion is independently documented.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #54

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:48 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:15 pm .

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:17 pm
Question for Debate: If science actually proved God, would you change the way you lived your life?

Answer: It would depend on which god science happened to prove.

If it's Athena, the Greek virgin goddess of intelligence, arts, wisdom and peace, I would likely be content and go on my merry way. As would I be okay with Odin, who's associated with death, healing, knowledge and poetry. But if it's Jehovah, the brutal, immoral, and inhumane god of Christianity, you'd probably find me cowering in a dark corner.



.
I think this why a good God deliberately obscures Himself from non-believers. From what I can make out, the thinking is, He wants us to love Him as He loves us, and voluntarily, not by compulsion. Even a God who is perfect in every way, if He was ever objectively proven to exist, would be a dreadful dictator. We would simply have nowhere to hide in our imperfection. And if an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God was ever proven that would be as compulsory as it is possible to imagine. So, He exists for those who love him, and provides us with plenty of subjective evidence that we are not wrong. But first you have to take that leap of faith, and believe.

But to answer your question, Purple Knight, I was once an atheist, and when I did eventually figure out that God must exist, and Christianity was more or less the way things are, I did change the way I live. I try harder now to do a little good in the world, and reject more absolutely crime than I did.

Best wishes, 2RM.
We have something in common then as I too was once an atheist and a rather outspoken one too. Like you I began to recognize that God did exist, had to exist and to consider otherwise led to a vacuous outcome, lots of explanations that ultimately explained absolutely nothing. I think your remarks about the personal nature of this are foundational too, my position now is that the Bible was "written for me". That might sound rather conceited but I mean by it, that there is knowledge in the words that carry a specific meaning for each of us, what I perceive sometimes when I study it is what it was intended for me to perceive and this is true for each of us.

For each of us the perception, understanding and so on are all different yet generated by reading the same text.

For the first time ever I listened (not read) Ecclesiastes, and it was a fascinating experience, there is so much in that book that was unexpected, like it is openly critical of God, dwelling on the apparent futility of our world, our lives, extremely thought provoking.



This can be regarded as a philosophical work more than a "religious" work, that is those disinclined toward "religion" should consider listening to it as a purely philosophical work, any thinking person will find it truly thought provoking at least given it was written thousands of years ago by people, people just like us, confused, bewildered...

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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #55

Post by Miles »

2ndRateMind wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:23 am
Miles wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:15 pm I'm not even convinced there was a singular person whom all the tales were spun around. The tales, events, and sayings of Jesus may have swirled around several people. Image However, for sake of discussion I almost always consider Jesus to be a single person.
Well, we have the evidence of of the Gospels, which, though they do not always concur exactly, seem to be broadly consistent. But if you think they are biased, check out the Roman historian Tacitus, The Annals (circa 116AD) book 15 chapter 44, in which the Crucifixion is independently documented.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Problem is, as you've indicated, the Annals were not written by anyone contemporary with the events---Tacitus was born years after the crucifixion--- but gleaned from stories passed down through the years. And yes, the crucifixion was independently documented, but so what? As I've indicated, such "documenting" was not from an eyewitness. It's no better than someone independently "documenting" the event today. A far better term wound be "related." Moreover the use of "independently" to describe the "documentation" only means that it was independent of something/one else. Is this really significant? No it isn't. So what we have here in the Annals is simply a description of an event, passed down, related by Tacitus, and long after it took place. So I fail to see how the Annals could function as "evidence of the gospels." No more so than if it had been written today.


.

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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #56

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Miles wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:24 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:23 am
Miles wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:15 pm I'm not even convinced there was a singular person whom all the tales were spun around. The tales, events, and sayings of Jesus may have swirled around several people. Image However, for sake of discussion I almost always consider Jesus to be a single person.
Well, we have the evidence of of the Gospels, which, though they do not always concur exactly, seem to be broadly consistent. But if you think they are biased, check out the Roman historian Tacitus, The Annals (circa 116AD) book 15 chapter 44, in which the Crucifixion is independently documented.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Problem is, as you've indicated, the Annals were not written by anyone contemporary with the events---Tacitus was born years after the crucifixion--- but gleaned from stories passed down through the years. And yes, the crucifixion was independently documented, but so what? As I've indicated, such "documenting" was not from an eyewitness. It's no better than someone independently "documenting" the event today. A far better term wound be "related." Moreover the use of "independently" to describe the "documentation" only means that it was independent of something/one else. Is this really significant? No it isn't. So what we have here in the Annals is simply a description of an event, passed down, related by Tacitus, and long after it took place. So I fail to see how the Annals could function as "evidence of the gospels." No more so than if it had been written today.


.
What - reasonably - could we expect though as "evidence" for the resurrection? Think about this, what more can we reasonably have expected? What more could the witnesses reasonably have done? What would you have done, had you witnessed Jesus performing miracles as described?

Bear in mind records indicate the many of the apostles were prepared to be executed and tortured for their testimony and they were, this too was recorded by others and is regarded as credible history. Men actually suffered torture and death to demonstrate their sincerity, what more can we really expect?

I don't think you'll find any other examples of this kind of thing from antiquity, the events and the documentation are unique in this respect, these apostles died often horribly for us, because they wanted to do as much as they could to spread the truth of what they had witnessed, tell me, what more could they have done than that?

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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #57

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Miles wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:24 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:23 am
Miles wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:15 pm I'm not even convinced there was a singular person whom all the tales were spun around. The tales, events, and sayings of Jesus may have swirled around several people. Image However, for sake of discussion I almost always consider Jesus to be a single person.
Well, we have the evidence of of the Gospels, which, though they do not always concur exactly, seem to be broadly consistent. But if you think they are biased, check out the Roman historian Tacitus, The Annals (circa 116AD) book 15 chapter 44, in which the Crucifixion is independently documented.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Problem is, as you've indicated, the Annals were not written by anyone contemporary with the events---Tacitus was born years after the crucifixion--- but gleaned from stories passed down through the years. And yes, the crucifixion was independently documented, but so what? As I've indicated, such "documenting" was not from an eyewitness. It's no better than someone independently "documenting" the event today. A far better term wound be "related." Moreover the use of "independently" to describe the "documentation" only means that it was independent of something/one else. Is this really significant? No it isn't. So what we have here in the Annals is simply a description of an event, passed down, related by Tacitus, and long after it took place. So I fail to see how the Annals could function as "evidence of the gospels." No more so than if it had been written today.


.
By 'independently documented' I simply mean that Tacitus was not a Christian or a Jew, unlike the writers of the Gospels. By 'we have the evidence of the Gospels' I mean that the Gospels themselves comprise evidence. Hope this clarifies! As for the quality of Tacitus' account, we need to remember that both he, and the writers of the Gospels, inhabited a largely oral culture, as opposed to our written and digital one. As a result great store was placed on accuracy of recall, which is less necessary in our age. Moreover, Tacitus had the habit of checking and corroborating his sources, and was not in the habit of reporting gossip.

Now, what is your evidence that Jesus was not one, but several people?

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #58

Post by Tcg »

2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:35 pm
brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:00 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:48 pm Even a God who is perfect in every way, if He was ever objectively proven to exist, would be a dreadful dictator.
That seems to speak directly to the nature of God rather than us knowing for sure that he was real. Based on descriptions in the Bible, he is a dreadful dictator as far as we already know.
Sure. From the Old Testament. Then came Jesus, and He corrected the misapprehensions.
Sure. From the New Testament. Jesus gave John of Patmos a vision of the future and his God was so different from the O.T. God:
Revelation 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia.


Tcg
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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #59

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Tcg wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:23 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:35 pm
brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:00 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:48 pm Even a God who is perfect in every way, if He was ever objectively proven to exist, would be a dreadful dictator.
That seems to speak directly to the nature of God rather than us knowing for sure that he was real. Based on descriptions in the Bible, he is a dreadful dictator as far as we already know.
Sure. From the Old Testament. Then came Jesus, and He corrected the misapprehensions.
Sure. From the New Testament. Jesus gave John of Patmos a vision of the future and his God was so different from the O.T. God:
Revelation 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia.


Tcg
I cannot be sure that Revelations is God's word, or merely a hallucination brought on by an over indulgence of magic mushrooms. Certainly, it does not qualify as a rational account of the end of the world, and I dismiss it for that reason.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: If Science Revealed God

Post #60

Post by Miles »

2ndRateMind wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:08 am
Now, what is your evidence that Jesus was not one, but several people?

Best wishes, 2RM.
I don't have any, which is why I said, "The tales, events, and sayings of Jesus may have swirled around several people." A development that could well be the case with the accounts of ancient personalities such as Homer, King Arthur, and even Pythagoras.



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