If Science Revealed God

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: If science actually proved God, would you change the way you lived your life?

And if so, why? Also, what would it be based upon? If it just so happens that the person in front of the computer posting as Purple Knight created the universe, do I gain any special moral credibility from that action? The way I see it, no, I don't. If I created the universe, so what? Your parents created you, and if they're bad people who want you to do bad things, you can still (and should, to my mind) say no.

[Tcg]

Obviously, an omnipotent God could easily let us know of His existence. One possible reason He would not, is because our freedom matters to Him. If you knew God existed, you would not in any meaningful way, be free to accept Him or reject Him.

That depends on what you mean by accept or reject. If I knew God existed I couldn't, at least not rationally, reject his existence, but I could reject his authority. Of course, if God existed and created us it'd be hard to imagine we'd reject his authority or his existence.


Tcg

[The Barbarian]

Unless an argument can be made that Satan does accept God? Perhaps a question for TD&D or C&A

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

[benchwarmer]

Unless an argument can be made that Satan does accept God? Perhaps a question for TD&D or C&A

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

So just to clarify, when you say 'accept' you mean 'believe'? I already covered that when I said if a god revealed itself I would accept it's existence. Who knows, I might even tremble, but that does not mean I accept it. Some who tremble do so while bravely rejecting what is wrong.

I believe there are murderers, but I don't 'accept' them. I reject them based on their actions. Much like I reject the god of the Bible for its supposed actions (or lack thereof).

[brunumb]

Obviously, an omnipotent God could easily let us know of His existence. One possible reason He would not, is because our freedom matters to Him. If you knew God existed, you would not in any meaningful way, be free to accept Him or reject Him.

Then what's with all the exploits and interventions and edicts involving God that are in the Bible? It didn't seem to matter to God that people knew he existed. In fact it would appear to be the exact opposite. If God doesn't want us to know he exists then all he has to do is keep hiding.

That said, the argument involving being free to accept him sounds a lot like a contrived excuse to cover for the fact that there is really no God there. I can't understand how this being could consider that we should believe in him without knowing he exists as worthy of any merit. The gullible will believe just about anything while the skeptical need compelling evidence. Who is this God trying to attract?

[The Barbarian]

Obviously, an omnipotent God could easily let us know of His existence. One possible reason He would not, is because our freedom matters to Him. If you knew God existed, you would not in any meaningful way, be free to accept Him or reject Him.

Then what's with all the exploits and interventions and edicts involving God that are in the Bible? It didn't seem to matter to God that people knew he existed. In fact it would appear to be the exact opposite. If God doesn't want us to know he exists then all he has to do is keep hiding.

Right. Why is there no unambiguous evidence for God, but all that literature religious experiences, etc? One explanation would be that He doesn't exist and somehow humans are adapted to fool themselves. Another would be that it's only unambiguous evidence that put on us any sort of conditions that Lev mentioned in his short story.

That said, the argument involving being free to accept him sounds a lot like a contrived excuse to cover for the fact that there is really no God there. I can't understand how this being could consider that we should believe in him without knowing he exists as worthy of any merit. The gullible will believe just about anything while the skeptical need compelling evidence. Who is this God trying to attract?

As I said that's one possible interpretation. Can't argue with anyone who believes it.

[The Barbarian]

Unless an argument can be made that Satan does accept God? Perhaps a question for TD&D or C&A

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

So just to clarify, when you say 'accept' you mean 'believe'? I already covered that when I said if a god revealed itself I would accept it's existence. Who knows, I might even tremble, but that does not mean I accept it. Some who tremble do so while bravely rejecting what is wrong.

I believe there are murderers, but I don't 'accept' them. I reject them based on their actions. Much like I reject the god of the Bible for its supposed actions (or lack thereof).

I mean to accept the reality of God. A lot of people hate what they think God is, but devils would surely know what He is.

Assuming Him, of course.

[2ndRateMind]

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Question for Debate: If science actually proved God, would you change the way you lived your life?

Answer: It would depend on which god science happened to prove.

If it's Athena, the Greek virgin goddess of intelligence, arts, wisdom and peace, I would likely be content and go on my merry way. As would I be okay with Odin, who's associated with death, healing, knowledge and poetry. But if it's Jehovah, the brutal, immoral, and inhumane god of Christianity, you'd probably find me cowering in a dark corner.



.

I think this why a good God deliberately obscures Himself from non-believers. From what I can make out, the thinking is, He wants us to love Him as He loves us, and voluntarily, not by compulsion. Even a God who is perfect in every way, if He was ever objectively proven to exist, would be a dreadful dictator. We would simply have nowhere to hide in our imperfection. And if an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God was ever proven that would be as compulsory as it is possible to imagine. So, He exists for those who love him, and provides us with plenty of subjective evidence that we are not wrong. But first you have to take that leap of faith, and believe.

But to answer your question, Purple Knight, I was once an atheist, and when I did eventually figure out that God must exist, and Christianity was more or less the way things are, I did change the way I live. I try harder now to do a little good in the world, and reject more absolutely crime than I did.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Miles]

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Question for Debate: If science actually proved God, would you change the way you lived your life?

Answer: It would depend on which god science happened to prove.

If it's Athena, the Greek virgin goddess of intelligence, arts, wisdom and peace, I would likely be content and go on my merry way. As would I be okay with Odin, who's associated with death, healing, knowledge and poetry. But if it's Jehovah, the brutal, immoral, and inhumane god of Christianity, you'd probably find me cowering in a dark corner.



.

I think this why a good God deliberately obscures Himself from non-believers.

Why? because it's too difficult for an omnipotent god to convert them. Or does he simply keep them around, as-is for, entertainment? My guess is door number 2.

From what I can make out, the thinking is, He wants us to love Him as He loves us, and voluntarily, not by compulsion. Even a God who is perfect in every way, if He was ever objectively proven to exist, would be a dreadful dictator. We would simply have nowhere to hide in our imperfection. And if God was ever proven that would be as compulsory as it is possible to imagine.

I don't think compulsion has to figure into it all. How about simple old-fashion convincing? Surely god's mind is far superior to that of any man's and it wouldn't take him but a moment to impress upon the renegade non-believer the truth of his existence and worthiness, whatever that may be.


.

[2ndRateMind]

.

Question for Debate: If science actually proved God, would you change the way you lived your life?

Answer: It would depend on which god science happened to prove.

If it's Athena, the Greek virgin goddess of intelligence, arts, wisdom and peace, I would likely be content and go on my merry way. As would I be okay with Odin, who's associated with death, healing, knowledge and poetry. But if it's Jehovah, the brutal, immoral, and inhumane god of Christianity, you'd probably find me cowering in a dark corner.



.

I think this why a good God deliberately obscures Himself from non-believers.

Why? because it's too difficult for an omnipotent god to convert them. Or does he simply keep them around, as-is for, entertainment? My guess is door number 2.

Or maybe there is a third option; He leaves it to us to decide on the relationship we want with Him.

From what I can make out, the thinking is, He wants us to love Him as He loves us, and voluntarily, not by compulsion. Even a God who is perfect in every way, if He was ever objectively proven to exist, would be a dreadful dictator. We would simply have nowhere to hide in our imperfection. And if God was ever proven that would be as compulsory as it is possible to imagine.

I don't think compulsion has to figure into it all. How about simple old-fashion convincing? Surely god's mind is far superior to that of any man's and it wouldn't take him but a moment to impress upon the renegade non-believer the truth of his existence and worthiness, whatever that may be.

Is Jesus not enough for you, then?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[brunumb]

Even a God who is perfect in every way, if He was ever objectively proven to exist, would be a dreadful dictator.

That seems to speak directly to the nature of God rather than us knowing for sure that he was real. Based on descriptions in the Bible, he is a dreadful dictator as far as we already know.

We would simply have nowhere to hide in our imperfection.

Why do we need to hide? Do the imperfect believers who claim to know that God exists have anywhere to hide? This is not making any sense.

And if an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God was ever proven that would be as compulsory as it is possible to imagine.

You are not compelled to honour, respect or even worship anyone simply because they are powerful. Sure, they can threaten to annihilate you, but in that case they would not deserve such regard anyway.

So, He exists for those who love him, and provides us with plenty of subjective evidence that we are not wrong. But first you have to take that leap of faith, and believe.

And if you don't love him does that mean he doesn't exist? If he gives us plenty of subjective evidence to prove he exists, why not go the whole hog? He either wants us to know or he doesn't. Telling someone to take a leap of faith is a confession that we don't really have any compelling reason to believe. One could take the same leap of faith and believe in Islam, or Hinduism, or $cientology, or The Great Pumpkin. Would that be a rational step to take? Or does it have to be the same leap of faith that you yourself took? Why should anyone take your advise over anyone else of a different religious persuasion?