Bill Allowing The Teaching Of Creationism In Public School Science Classes Is Passed In Arkansas House 72-21

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Miles
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Bill Allowing The Teaching Of Creationism In Public School Science Classes Is Passed In Arkansas House 72-21

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A bill to allow Christian beliefs to be taught in Arkansas classrooms easily passed the state House Wednesday. House Bill 1701 now heads to the Senate side for a vote.

The bill will allow kindergarten through 12th grade teachers to teach students about the Christian theory of creationism, which claims that a divine being conjured the universe and all things in it in six days. The bill specifies that creationism can be taught not only in religion and philosophy classes, but “as a theory of how the Earth came to exist.”

As with so many pieces of legislation churning out of the Arkansas Capitol this session, if HB 1701 passes, a quick court challenge on this blatant mixing of church and state is all but inevitable. The United States Supreme Court already considered this issue in 1987 and ruled in no uncertain terms that teaching creationism in public school classrooms is unconstitutional. But blatant unconstitutionality hasn’t dissuaded Arkansas lawmakers so far this session. One Senate bill that passed recently, for example, declared all federal gun laws null and void within our state’s borders, in clear opposition to the Supremacy Clause that says federal laws take precedence over state laws.

Rep. Mary Bentley (R-Perryville), sponsor of House Bill 1701 “TO ALLOW CREATIONISM AS A THEORY OF HOW THE EARTH CAME TO EXIST TO BE TAUGHT IN KINDERGARTEN THROUGH GRADE TWELVE CLASSES IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND OPEN–ENROLLMENT PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS,” said she put forth the bill at the request of science teachers in her district.

“There are phenomena in our nature that evolution cannot explain,” Bentley said. She emphasized that science teachers may teach creationism under this bill, but they don’t have to.
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Stupid beyond belief, but what's your opinion?

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Jose Fly
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Re: Bill Allowing The Teaching Of Creationism In Public School Science Classes Is Passed In Arkansas House 72-21

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Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:43 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:10 pm But these multitudes of opinions and beliefs are not on par with evolution.
Well right there is an opinion, your opinion, the very thing you disparage below!
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:10 pm Evolution is not considered to be an opinion or belief. It's considered to be a scientific fact.
Well it is most certainly not regarded as a "fact" by me or by plenty of other people, including "scientists", chemists, biochemists, molecular biologists, mathematicians, etc etc etc...
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:10 pm Now when creationism, or whatever else, attains the distinction of being a scientific fact it can be allowed into the science classroom. Until then: -DO NOT ENTER-
How well you demonstrate my case for me!

Scientific theories are not facts, hypotheses are not facts.

No other theory or hypotheses in the sciences gets elevated to the ludicrous status of a "fact" so right there, with your own post you prove the very thing I claimed, evolution is revered, eulogized, dare I say even worshipped by the loyal devoted adherents, the ever watchful devotees, the defenders of the faith, ready to pounce on anyone who dares to question the dogma - sorry - facts.

I will not allow the lie that the theory of evolution is a fact, to go unchallenged, under no circumstances can anyone who cares about science and truth sit silently while fools like Dawkins, Hitchens and Krauss merrily peddle this lie, this is not about education it's plain old indoctrination.
Whether you like it or not, that evolution occurs is indeed a fact. We see it happen all the time, right before our eyes. Every new species, trait, ability, and genetic sequence we've seen arise has done so via evolutionary mechanisms.

Also, whether you like it or not the world's scientific community has generally agreed on things like universal common ancestry and human-primate common ancestry for over a century. Meanwhile, creationism hasn't contributed a single thing to our understanding of the world in at least 100 years, and has been 100% scientifically irrelevant.

So effectively what you're doing isn't all that different than a flat-earth believer arguing that their belief in a flat-earth should be taught in schools. After all, what are all those geographers afraid of, right?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: Bill Allowing The Teaching Of Creationism In Public School Science Classes Is Passed In Arkansas House 72-21

Post #212

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

brunumb wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:19 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:40 pm What is wrong with being honest to our children? what is wrong with letting them see that there are a multitude of opinions and beliefs?

A truly valuable education would include more philosophy, encourage children to think for themselves, explain the different ways of evaluating the truth of what others tell them? teach them to be independent confident thinkers and decision makers rather than machines that just record an official "truth"?
Creationism is not science and should not be taught as such by including it in the science curriculum.
I must ask you what did I write that you are disagreeing with? I did not write that "creationism should be taught in the science curriculum", where did you get the idea that I did advocate that?

I have never advocated that because "creationism" is a huge jumble of ideas, beliefs, facts, fiction and so on, for that reason I would never advocate that, it is too poorly defined.

Here's what I did write "teach them to be independent confident thinkers" and "encourage children to think for themselves, explain the different ways of evaluating the truth of what others tell them" what is it about those words that scares you?
brunumb wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:19 pm Within science, what is taught is our current understanding of adaptation and speciation based on an accumulation of evidence.

How would you feel if it was proposed that evolution be taught as an alternative to creation in religious studies classes?
I'm 100% in favor of evolution being taught, given a fair hearing, but it should never ever ever be claimed to be "a fact" it should never reprimand, ridicule or ostracize someone who begs to differ, sees something else in the data.

I must have said it a thousand times in my life, in debates, that Darwin was a superb scientist, his hypothesis is outstanding and very natural way to interpret what we observe, it should be taught.

I can say that same thing about Isaac Newton, the very same words describe him too, we should teach evolution just as we teach Newtonian mechanics and celestial mechanics, just because a theory might have flaws, face challenging data etc is no reason to suppress it.

We should never ever elevate some hypothesis about the natural world to become a dogma, we should never lie to protect it, we should never discourage young minds from considering and discovering viable alternative interpretations of data.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: Bill Allowing The Teaching Of Creationism In Public School Science Classes Is Passed In Arkansas House 72-21

Post #213

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:55 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:43 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:10 pm But these multitudes of opinions and beliefs are not on par with evolution.
Well right there is an opinion, your opinion, the very thing you disparage below!
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:10 pm Evolution is not considered to be an opinion or belief. It's considered to be a scientific fact.
Well it is most certainly not regarded as a "fact" by me or by plenty of other people, including "scientists", chemists, biochemists, molecular biologists, mathematicians, etc etc etc...
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:10 pm Now when creationism, or whatever else, attains the distinction of being a scientific fact it can be allowed into the science classroom. Until then: -DO NOT ENTER-
How well you demonstrate my case for me!

Scientific theories are not facts, hypotheses are not facts.

No other theory or hypotheses in the sciences gets elevated to the ludicrous status of a "fact" so right there, with your own post you prove the very thing I claimed, evolution is revered, eulogized, dare I say even worshipped by the loyal devoted adherents, the ever watchful devotees, the defenders of the faith, ready to pounce on anyone who dares to question the dogma - sorry - facts.

I will not allow the lie that the theory of evolution is a fact, to go unchallenged, under no circumstances can anyone who cares about science and truth sit silently while fools like Dawkins, Hitchens and Krauss merrily peddle this lie, this is not about education it's plain old indoctrination.
Whether you like it or not, that evolution occurs is indeed a fact. We see it happen all the time, right before our eyes. Every new species, trait, ability, and genetic sequence we've seen arise has done so via evolutionary mechanisms.
I am aware of what a fact is, claiming "evolution occurs is indeed a fact" is the same as claiming "computers can think is indeed a fact" - they are both very flawed statements, taking some specific cases and generalizing them to all cases.

I never question a fact, I recognize a fact when I encounter one. I also recognize an extrapolation when I see one, I also recognize a generalization when I see one, I also recognize scientific induction when I see it.

An induction from facts is not a fact - if you think I am wrong then do feel free to elaborate.
Jose Fly wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:55 pm Also, whether you like it or not the world's scientific community has generally agreed on things like universal common ancestry and human-primate common ancestry for over a century.
There's no such body or organization named "the scientific community" so what exactly are you talking about? to what authority are you referring? (let me hazard a guess - the community of evolution advocates perhaps?)
Jose Fly wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:55 pm Meanwhile, creationism hasn't contributed a single thing to our understanding of the world in at least 100 years, and has been 100% scientifically irrelevant.
That is an opinion Mr. Fly, it is certainly not a fact, it is your opinion.
Jose Fly wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:55 pm So effectively what you're doing isn't all that different than a flat-earth believer arguing that their belief in a flat-earth should be taught in schools. After all, what are all those geographers afraid of, right?
That's an interesting example, and here is my response, the respected science historian James Burke say's it better than I:

When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: Bill Allowing The Teaching Of Creationism In Public School Science Classes Is Passed In Arkansas House 72-21

Post #214

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:25 pmI am aware of what a fact is, claiming "evolution occurs is indeed a fact" is the same as claiming "computers can think is indeed a fact" - they are both very flawed statements, taking some specific cases and generalizing them to all cases.

I never question a fact, I recognize a fact when I encounter one. I also recognize an extrapolation when I see one, I also recognize a generalization when I see one, I also recognize scientific induction when I see it.

An induction from facts is not a fact - if you think I am wrong then do feel free to elaborate.
Wait....are you actually disputing that populations evolve? Are you of the view that no population has ever evolved a new trait, ability, or genetic sequence....ever?
There's no such body or organization named "the scientific community" so what exactly are you talking about? to what authority are you referring? (let me hazard a guess - the community of evolution advocates perhaps?)
There are national academies of science across the developed world, there are large scientific organizations such as the AAAS, AGU, and "societies" of professionals in specific fields. Every one that has gone on record on this issue has endorsed evolution and rejected creationism, oftentimes in the specific context of public school education.
That is an opinion Mr. Fly, it is certainly not a fact, it is your opinion.
It is a fact. If you think otherwise, then show something that creationism has contributed to our understanding of the world in the last 100 years.
That's an interesting example, and here is my response, the respected science historian James Burke say's it better than I:

Are you a flat-earth believer?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: Bill Allowing The Teaching Of Creationism In Public School Science Classes Is Passed In Arkansas House 72-21

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Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:53 pm Questioning the claims of evolutionists is not religious dogma, it is questioning the claims of evolutionists, the fact that you need to mischaracterize this in order to then discredit it speaks volumes.
What's religious dogma is refusing to accept new and better information.

As we note the ignorance of so many theists works to confuse the issue.
It is no different and no less legitimate than questioning the claims of any scientist on any suggested process deemed to operate in nature.
Dude, you call yourself 'Sherlock Holmes'.

How dare you question any claims others may present, from any side of any aisle.

You seek legitimatacy of your claims under the banner of a finely regarded fictional character .
Your philosophy is that it's fine to question scientists just not evolutionists and that is the real threat to the freedom of thought.
My philosophy is you seek to hide the weakness of your arguments under the auspices of a fictional character.

Ya know, like that God bunch.
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Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

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Re: Bill Allowing The Teaching Of Creationism In Public School Science Classes Is Passed In Arkansas House 72-21

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Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:53 pmQuestioning the claims of evolutionists is not religious dogma, it is questioning the claims of evolutionists,
"Questioning the claims of evolutionists" isn't the part that's religious dogma, but rather the presentation of religious creationism, regardless of the language it's couched in.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:53 pmthe fact that you need to mischaracterize this in order to then discredit it speaks volumes.
I'll keep that in mind. It might help me spot a dishonest argument someday.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:53 pmIt is no different and no less legitimate than questioning the claims of any scientist on any suggested process deemed to operate in nature.
Again, "questioning" scientific conclusions is legitimate. Asking if leprechauns might create rainbows after we thoroughly understand refraction is somewhat less legitimate.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:53 pmYour philosophy is that it's fine to question scientists just not evolutionists and that is the real threat to the freedom of thought.
And refractionists. My philosophy is that it's fine to question anyone but evolutionists and refractionists.
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

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