For debate:EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
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Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
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For debate:EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
The supernatural doesn't lend itself to conclusions of truth or fact about itself, which is why claims like that of EarthScienceguy here are ridiculous and not worth addressing.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:39 pm From Post 136 here:
For debate:EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
Given that some of us here at this website have recently engaged in just such a discussion about the possibility of Omni-everything supernatural beings creating universes, and it was conclusively shown that Omni-everything supernatural beings are logically impossible, I'd say you were asking for something that you ain't ever gonna see, Joey...JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:39 pm From Post 136 here:
For debate:EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
I don't reckon I'm ever gonna see Marissa Tomei in my bedroom, but that don't stop me from hoping I doKenisaw wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 6:59 pmGiven that some of us here at this website have recently engaged in just such a discussion about the possibility of Omni-everything supernatural beings creating universes, and it was conclusively shown that Omni-everything supernatural beings are logically impossible, I'd say you were asking for something that you ain't ever gonna see, Joey...JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:39 pm From Post 136 here:
For debate:EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
Why are you saying that an Omniscient being is impossible? Omniscience is a natural result of being omnipresent. Omnipresent is a natural result of being eternal and not being confined to a single locus in space. Omnipotent is a natural result of being eternal. And any being or thing that created the universe has to be eternal.Given that some of us here at this website have recently engaged in just such a discussion about the possibility of Omni-everything supernatural beings creating universes, and it was conclusively shown that Omni-everything supernatural beings are logically impossible, I'd say you were asking for something that you ain't ever gonna see, Joey...
Can you show, other'n by bald faced assertion, that any being or thing that 'created' the universe must be eternal?EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 9:56 am ...
And any being or thing that created the universe has to be eternal.
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All of it.EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 9:56 am [Replying to Kenisaw in post #3]
Why are you saying that an Omniscient being is impossible? Omniscience is a natural result of being omnipresent. Omnipresent is a natural result of being eternal and not being confined to a single locus in space. Omnipotent is a natural result of being eternal. And any being or thing that created the universe has to be eternal.Given that some of us here at this website have recently engaged in just such a discussion about the possibility of Omni-everything supernatural beings creating universes, and it was conclusively shown that Omni-everything supernatural beings are logically impossible, I'd say you were asking for something that you ain't ever gonna see, Joey...
So which point are you saying is not logical?
How can a being not know everything if He is omnipresent? If He is at every point in space and at every moment in space from eternity past to eternity future all at the same time He has to know everything. There is no place or no point of time in which He does not exist.Omniscience: You don't know what you don't know. Explain to me how any supernatural being can be sure, with 100% certainty, that it knows everything. It can't. There is no way to know about the things you don't know about, and no way to be sure that you don't know something. This necessary fact about knowledge means that no matter how much is known, a god creature can never be sure it actually knows all. If it can't be sure it knows all then that is...an unknown! Furthering that, it doesn't know how much it doesn't know. There could me more that it doesn't know than it does know. There's no way to be sure. There's no knowledge gauge (like a gas gauge) with an indicator pointing to "F".
We are bound by a single locus because we are creatures of this universe. God does not need space to exist. That is why the Bible even talks about God being made of a different substance than man. God has to be able to exist outside of space and time to have created this universe. If God does not need space to exist then He does not need to exist as a being bound by a single locus. Objects and beings in this universe have to exist with a single locus because they need space and the quantum field in space to exist.Omnipresent: Same problem as Omniscience. How can a being know it is everywhere? It can't. It can't know about the places that it isn't present.
Your mathematical argument of infinity is incorrect. The only thing that can cross infinity is infinity. Infinity + or - any number is still infinity. But Infinity - infinity is 0. God has to be infinite to create this universe. God exists in the present tense from infinity past to infinity future. He can see it and experience it all at the same moment.Eternal: If a being is eternal it can never get to the point in it's existence where it creates a universe. It would take an eternity before it did that, and of course there is no end to eternity. The attempt to sidestep this by claiming that a supernatural being exists in all moments at once isn't logical either. It exists both with the universe existing, and not existing? That is irrational.
The Bible says that God is unchanging. Which would also be a natural result of being omnipresent? He does know the future. To God, the future is happening at the same time the present and the past are happening. And why would He change the future when He created the future at the same time He created the past and the present. This is why it has to be because Einstein's theory of relativity says that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously.Omnipotent: At this point a supernatural critter that doesn't know all, isn't everywhere, and isn't eternal can't be considered all powerful either. But even if all knowing was possible, that would still negate being all powerful. A being that knows everything would know what happens in the future, and if it knows what happens in the future than the future cannot be changed, and if the being cant change the future than it can't be all powerful.
Then maybe there's a way for a being to know everything and you just don't know it.
This is irrelevant since a being who has always existed could always have caused a universe to exist.If a being is eternal it can never get to the point in it's existence where it creates a universe.
Knowing that the future isn't going to change isn't the same as being unable to change it. Having power doesn't require using it.A being that knows everything would know what happens in the future, and if it knows what happens in the future than the future cannot be changed, and if the being cant change the future than it can't be all powerful.
Maybe there is. If someone can logically explain how that works, I'd love to hear it.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 1:31 pmThen maybe there's a way for a being to know everything and you just don't know it.
You missed my point, and then you've also made a false equivalency.This is irrelevant since a being who has always existed could always have caused a universe to exist.If a being is eternal it can never get to the point in it's existence where it creates a universe.
Yes, that is exactly what that means. If a god knows everything, than it knows the future. If it knows the future, it already knows all the changes to the future. If it already knows all the changes to the future, it can't change the future because it would have already known that. So either it can't change the future (not all powerful), or it can't be all knowing (but can change the future).Knowing that the future isn't going to change isn't the same as being unable to change it. Having power doesn't require using it.A being that knows everything would know what happens in the future, and if it knows what happens in the future than the future cannot be changed, and if the being cant change the future than it can't be all powerful.