The existence of the universe requires a god

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Under Probation
Posts: 18758
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 1729 times
Been thanked: 1169 times

The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #1

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 136 here:
EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3394
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 266 times
Been thanked: 941 times

Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #2

Post by Miles »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:39 pm From Post 136 here:
EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
The supernatural doesn't lend itself to conclusions of truth or fact about itself, which is why claims like that of EarthScienceguy here are ridiculous and not worth addressing.


.

Kenisaw
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:41 pm
Location: St Louis, MO, USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #3

Post by Kenisaw »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:39 pm From Post 136 here:
EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
Given that some of us here at this website have recently engaged in just such a discussion about the possibility of Omni-everything supernatural beings creating universes, and it was conclusively shown that Omni-everything supernatural beings are logically impossible, I'd say you were asking for something that you ain't ever gonna see, Joey...

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Under Probation
Posts: 18758
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 1729 times
Been thanked: 1169 times

Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #4

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Kenisaw wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 6:59 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:39 pm From Post 136 here:
EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
Given that some of us here at this website have recently engaged in just such a discussion about the possibility of Omni-everything supernatural beings creating universes, and it was conclusively shown that Omni-everything supernatural beings are logically impossible, I'd say you were asking for something that you ain't ever gonna see, Joey...
I don't reckon I'm ever gonna see Marissa Tomei in my bedroom, but that don't stop me from hoping I do :wave:

But yeah. I like to present challenges to certain claims in case someone might be thinking those claims are true.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

User avatar
EarthScienceguy
Guru
Posts: 1669
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 35 times
Contact:

Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #5

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Kenisaw in post #3]
Given that some of us here at this website have recently engaged in just such a discussion about the possibility of Omni-everything supernatural beings creating universes, and it was conclusively shown that Omni-everything supernatural beings are logically impossible, I'd say you were asking for something that you ain't ever gonna see, Joey...
Why are you saying that an Omniscient being is impossible? Omniscience is a natural result of being omnipresent. Omnipresent is a natural result of being eternal and not being confined to a single locus in space. Omnipotent is a natural result of being eternal. And any being or thing that created the universe has to be eternal.

So which point are you saying is not logical?

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Under Probation
Posts: 18758
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 1729 times
Been thanked: 1169 times

Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #6

Post by JoeyKnothead »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:56 am ...
And any being or thing that created the universe has to be eternal.
...
Can you show, other'n by bald faced assertion, that any being or thing that 'created' the universe must be eternal?


If not, then why ain't it more logical to conclude the universe might itself be eternal, only in it one form or another?
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

Kenisaw
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:41 pm
Location: St Louis, MO, USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #7

Post by Kenisaw »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:56 am [Replying to Kenisaw in post #3]
Given that some of us here at this website have recently engaged in just such a discussion about the possibility of Omni-everything supernatural beings creating universes, and it was conclusively shown that Omni-everything supernatural beings are logically impossible, I'd say you were asking for something that you ain't ever gonna see, Joey...
Why are you saying that an Omniscient being is impossible? Omniscience is a natural result of being omnipresent. Omnipresent is a natural result of being eternal and not being confined to a single locus in space. Omnipotent is a natural result of being eternal. And any being or thing that created the universe has to be eternal.

So which point are you saying is not logical?
All of it.

Omniscience: You don't know what you don't know. Explain to me how any supernatural being can be sure, with 100% certainty, that it knows everything. It can't. There is no way to know about the things you don't know about, and no way to be sure that you don't know something. This necessary fact about knowledge means that no matter how much is known, a god creature can never be sure it actually knows all. If it can't be sure it knows all then that is...an unknown! Furthering that, it doesn't know how much it doesn't know. There could me more that it doesn't know than it does know. There's no way to be sure. There's no knowledge gauge (like a gas gauge) with an indicator pointing to "F".

Omnipresent: Same problem as Omniscience. How can a being know it is everywhere? It can't. It can't know about the places that it isn't present.

Eternal: If a being is eternal it can never get to the point in it's existence where it creates a universe. It would take an eternity before it did that, and of course there is no end to eternity. The attempt to sidestep this by claiming that a supernatural being exists in all moments at once isn't logical either. It exists both with the universe existing, and not existing? That is irrational.

Omnipotent: At this point a supernatural critter that doesn't know all, isn't everywhere, and isn't eternal can't be considered all powerful either. But even if all knowing was possible, that would still negate being all powerful. A being that knows everything would know what happens in the future, and if it knows what happens in the future than the future cannot be changed, and if the being cant change the future than it can't be all powerful.

The summation of this is that any supernatural being, no matter what, cannot be omni-whatever. All supernatural beings are therefore LIMITED beings. This has further ramifications that trickle on down. For example, there can't possibly be an objective morality. If it isn't possible to know all, then any moral declarations by a god would be done with limited knowledge, which makes them a subjective declaration, because the god doesn't have all knowledge to consider before making it's moral declaration.

Onmi gods are illogical.

User avatar
EarthScienceguy
Guru
Posts: 1669
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 35 times
Contact:

Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #8

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Kenisaw in post #7]
Omniscience: You don't know what you don't know. Explain to me how any supernatural being can be sure, with 100% certainty, that it knows everything. It can't. There is no way to know about the things you don't know about, and no way to be sure that you don't know something. This necessary fact about knowledge means that no matter how much is known, a god creature can never be sure it actually knows all. If it can't be sure it knows all then that is...an unknown! Furthering that, it doesn't know how much it doesn't know. There could me more that it doesn't know than it does know. There's no way to be sure. There's no knowledge gauge (like a gas gauge) with an indicator pointing to "F".
How can a being not know everything if He is omnipresent? If He is at every point in space and at every moment in space from eternity past to eternity future all at the same time He has to know everything. There is no place or no point of time in which He does not exist.


Omnipresent: Same problem as Omniscience. How can a being know it is everywhere? It can't. It can't know about the places that it isn't present.
We are bound by a single locus because we are creatures of this universe. God does not need space to exist. That is why the Bible even talks about God being made of a different substance than man. God has to be able to exist outside of space and time to have created this universe. If God does not need space to exist then He does not need to exist as a being bound by a single locus. Objects and beings in this universe have to exist with a single locus because they need space and the quantum field in space to exist.


Eternal: If a being is eternal it can never get to the point in it's existence where it creates a universe. It would take an eternity before it did that, and of course there is no end to eternity. The attempt to sidestep this by claiming that a supernatural being exists in all moments at once isn't logical either. It exists both with the universe existing, and not existing? That is irrational.
Your mathematical argument of infinity is incorrect. The only thing that can cross infinity is infinity. Infinity + or - any number is still infinity. But Infinity - infinity is 0. God has to be infinite to create this universe. God exists in the present tense from infinity past to infinity future. He can see it and experience it all at the same moment.

Although time started with this universe so that is why God also does not need time to be moving to exist, so He can exist at all times.


Omnipotent: At this point a supernatural critter that doesn't know all, isn't everywhere, and isn't eternal can't be considered all powerful either. But even if all knowing was possible, that would still negate being all powerful. A being that knows everything would know what happens in the future, and if it knows what happens in the future than the future cannot be changed, and if the being cant change the future than it can't be all powerful.
The Bible says that God is unchanging. Which would also be a natural result of being omnipresent? He does know the future. To God, the future is happening at the same time the present and the past are happening. And why would He change the future when He created the future at the same time He created the past and the present. This is why it has to be because Einstein's theory of relativity says that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously.

You may not like the idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God but it is not illogical, for the Creator God to exist He has to have these qualities.

Athetotheist
Guru
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 176 times

Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #9

Post by Athetotheist »

Kenisaw wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:13 pmThere is no way to know about the things you don't know about, and no way to be sure that you don't know something.
Then maybe there's a way for a being to know everything and you just don't know it.
If a being is eternal it can never get to the point in it's existence where it creates a universe.
This is irrelevant since a being who has always existed could always have caused a universe to exist.
A being that knows everything would know what happens in the future, and if it knows what happens in the future than the future cannot be changed, and if the being cant change the future than it can't be all powerful.
Knowing that the future isn't going to change isn't the same as being unable to change it. Having power doesn't require using it.

Kenisaw
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:41 pm
Location: St Louis, MO, USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #10

Post by Kenisaw »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:31 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:13 pmThere is no way to know about the things you don't know about, and no way to be sure that you don't know something.
Then maybe there's a way for a being to know everything and you just don't know it.
Maybe there is. If someone can logically explain how that works, I'd love to hear it.
If a being is eternal it can never get to the point in it's existence where it creates a universe.
This is irrelevant since a being who has always existed could always have caused a universe to exist.
You missed my point, and then you've also made a false equivalency.

First, to my point - being eternal means that there was no beginning, which means a supernatural entity would have to experience an infinite amount of existence before getting around to creating this universe. But there is no end to infinite existence, so there is no way to get to the moment in it's existence where it creates a universe. Eternal beings can't do something in the middle of their existence because there is no middle to their existence. It's illogical.

As to the false equivalency - There is no reason to think that a being that has always existed would automatically be able to create a universe. Why does eternal existence confer that particular ability? For the sake of discussion, why can't we posit that a supernatural entity that has always existed can't create a universe? That is also an option, is it not? There is nothing that makes eternal existence a pre-requisite for the ability to create a universe, and there is nothing about creating a universe that requires that the creator of that universe be an eternal being.
A being that knows everything would know what happens in the future, and if it knows what happens in the future than the future cannot be changed, and if the being cant change the future than it can't be all powerful.
Knowing that the future isn't going to change isn't the same as being unable to change it. Having power doesn't require using it.
Yes, that is exactly what that means. If a god knows everything, than it knows the future. If it knows the future, it already knows all the changes to the future. If it already knows all the changes to the future, it can't change the future because it would have already known that. So either it can't change the future (not all powerful), or it can't be all knowing (but can change the future).

Post Reply