The existence of the universe requires a god

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #1

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 136 here:
EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
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Invention is using things discovered.

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #111

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

William wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:14 pm They cannot explain, because it is impossible to explain.
Well said!
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #112

Post by Difflugia »

William wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:14 pmIt is not really a 'problem.'

What remains can be sufficiently categorized as 'nothing sensible is off the table' whereas the materialist has decided that the idea the universe was created mindfully, is 'nonsense' and does not deserve a place at the table.

They have thus eliminated that possibility by behaving as if it is an impossibility... without explaining why that should be the case.
It's been explained that it's grossly improbable. The proposition being discussed has only been supported so far as being possible in the sense that "anything" is. If we're going to leave it on the table, then leaving the other contenders (anything that can't be disproven, even in principle) off the table is nothing more than unfair favoritism. If we set some lower threshold for acceptable probability to assure a place at the table and things like "mindful creation" don't make the cut, theists get upset. Make no mistake, though, it's not because we aren't being fair to theism, but because we are being fair. They're welcome to make a case for probability, but at least in this thread have chosen not to.
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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #113

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:54 pm
William wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:14 pmIt is not really a 'problem.'

What remains can be sufficiently categorized as 'nothing sensible is off the table' whereas the materialist has decided that the idea the universe was created mindfully, is 'nonsense' and does not deserve a place at the table.

They have thus eliminated that possibility by behaving as if it is an impossibility... without explaining why that should be the case.
It's been explained that it's grossly improbable.
This is not true, I've never ever seen such an "explanation" please show the calculation that leads to this conclusion? what is the probability (that mind created the universe) exactly in your opinion?
Difflugia wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:54 pm The proposition being discussed has only been supported so far as being possible in the sense that "anything" is. If we're going to leave it on the table, then leaving the other contenders (anything that can't be disproven, even in principle) off the table is nothing more than unfair favoritism. If we set some lower threshold for acceptable probability to assure a place at the table and things like "mindful creation" don't make the cut, theists get upset. Make no mistake, though, it's not because we aren't being fair to theism, but because we are being fair. They're welcome to make a case for probability, but at least in this thread have chosen not to.
Why not talk about what's impossible rather than what's improbable? Because even if some event were highly improbable that is much more attractive as a potential explanation than something that's impossible.

A scientific (material) explanation (aka theory) for the presence of the universe is a logical impossibility so I fail to see how that can avoid being rejected by you.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #114

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to William in post #110]
What remains can be sufficiently categorized as 'nothing sensible is off the table' whereas the materialist has decided that the idea the universe was created mindfully, is 'nonsense' and does not deserve a place at the table.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my quoted post as I made no mention of gods, mindful creation, etc. I was simply commenting that Sherlock's signature quote is not accurate. Discarding all things that are "impossible" (that category itself being subjective) does not allow the conclusion that what remains truth when more than one possibility remains. This is independent of any notions of mindful creators or how the universe came into existense.
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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #115

Post by William »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #112]
It is not really a 'problem.'

What remains can be sufficiently categorized as 'nothing sensible is off the table' whereas the materialist has decided that the idea the universe was created mindfully, is 'nonsense' and does not deserve a place at the table.

They have thus eliminated that possibility by behaving as if it is an impossibility... without explaining why that should be the case.
It's been explained that it's grossly improbable.
Rather it has been claimed to be "grossly improbable" - not explained.

The existence of this universe, alongside the existence of this particular planet anomaly, is fair indication of a mind behind it all.

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #116

Post by William »

DrNoGods wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:22 pm [Replying to William in post #110]
What remains can be sufficiently categorized as 'nothing sensible is off the table' whereas the materialist has decided that the idea the universe was created mindfully, is 'nonsense' and does not deserve a place at the table.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my quoted post as I made no mention of gods, mindful creation, etc. I was simply commenting that Sherlock's signature quote is not accurate. Discarding all things that are "impossible" (that category itself being subjective) does not allow the conclusion that what remains truth when more than one possibility remains. This is independent of any notions of mindful creators or how the universe came into existense.
It is not independent of the idea of this universe being the creation of mind, because that has not been shown to be an impossibility.

When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

A mind behind the creation has not been shown to be impossible, therefore should not be eliminated.

A mind behind creation is therefore part of what 'must be truth' or 'left at the table' as I put it.

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #117

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to William in post #116]
A mind behind the creation has not been shown to be impossible, therefore should not be eliminated.

A mind behind creation is therefore part of what 'must be truth' or 'left at the table' as I put it.
I agree that a mind behind creation has not been eliminated (however improbable it might be), but I was commenting on the Doyle quote in general without any reference to a particular subject. It seems to be intended to apply to any subject, particularly crime investigations given who wrote it, and not specific to gods or minds, etc.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

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Mark Twain

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #118

Post by William »

DrNoGods wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:48 pm [Replying to William in post #116]
A mind behind the creation has not been shown to be impossible, therefore should not be eliminated.

A mind behind creation is therefore part of what 'must be truth' or 'left at the table' as I put it.
I agree that a mind behind creation has not been eliminated (however improbable it might be), but I was commenting on the Doyle quote in general without any reference to a particular subject. It seems to be intended to apply to any subject, particularly crime investigations given who wrote it, and not specific to gods or minds, etc.
Whereas I was applying it to the thread heading idea, which I thought Sherlock Holmes [the forum member] was also doing.

Furthermore, I think any great detective would apply the same principle to any subject, not just solving crime.

Indeed, what is even improbable about the idea of there being a mind behind the creation of this universe?

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #119

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

William wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:58 pm
DrNoGods wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:48 pm [Replying to William in post #116]
A mind behind the creation has not been shown to be impossible, therefore should not be eliminated.

A mind behind creation is therefore part of what 'must be truth' or 'left at the table' as I put it.
I agree that a mind behind creation has not been eliminated (however improbable it might be), but I was commenting on the Doyle quote in general without any reference to a particular subject. It seems to be intended to apply to any subject, particularly crime investigations given who wrote it, and not specific to gods or minds, etc.
Whereas I was applying it to the thread heading idea, which I thought Sherlock Holmes [the forum member] was also doing.

Furthermore, I think any great detective would apply the same principle to any subject, not just solving crime.

Indeed, what is even improbable about the idea of there being a mind behind the creation of this universe?
Indeed.

My signature is intended to convey that despite what our instincts, beliefs or education might suggest to us, assumptions must always be questioned dispassionately.

The unpalatability of some alternative explanation must play no role in our choices, we must always be prepared to accept hitherto unanticipated things, we must always be willing to have our beliefs molded by reality rather than molding reality to fit cozily into our beliefs.

When I abandoned atheism many years ago, the difficult part of that was not the reasoning, the science, the rationalizing, it was my own stubborn unwillingness to admit I might have been wrong, might have been misled, that was where all resistance stemmed from, preservation of existing belief had been my priority, I even lied to myself about it, that was the hard part, fighting myself.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #120

Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:39 pm When I abandoned atheism many years ago, the difficult part of that was not the reasoning, the science, the rationalizing, it was my own stubborn unwillingness to admit I might have been wrong, might have been misled, that was where all resistance stemmed from, preservation of existing belief had been my priority, I even lied to myself about it, that was the hard part, fighting myself.
I read that and realised that I had seen similar scenarios described by many former Christians who had fought hard but eventually had to abandon their beliefs.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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