The existence of the universe requires a god

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The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #1

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 136 here:
EarthScienceguy wrote: ...
The universe could not exist in the form that it is in unless there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God.
...
For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the referenced claim is true and factual.
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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #21

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Kenisaw in post #10]
First, to my point - being eternal means that there was no beginning, which means a supernatural entity would have to experience an infinite amount of existence before getting around to creating this universe. But there is no end to infinite existence, so there is no way to get to the moment in it's existence where it creates a universe. Eternal beings can't do something in the middle of their existence because there is no middle to their existence. It's illogical.
If this is the case then the universe cannot exist in any theory because in any theory something has to cross eternity to get to the moment that we are at right now. I do exist and I am writing this right now so it is illogical to argue that something cannot cross eternity
As to the false equivalency - There is no reason to think that a being that has always existed would automatically be able to create a universe. Why does eternal existence confer that particular ability? For the sake of discussion, why can't we posit that a supernatural entity that has always existed can't create a universe? That is also an option, is it not? There is nothing that makes eternal existence a pre-requisite for the ability to create a universe, and there is nothing about creating a universe that requires that the creator of that universe be an eternal being.
A being that knows everything would know what happens in the future, and if it knows what happens in the future than the future cannot be changed, and if the being cant change the future than it can't be all powerful.
Something had to cross eternity. There has to be something that has always existed to get to this point. For atheist Sean Carroll and others, it is an eternal "mother" universe that spawned an infinite number of universes.

To Christians, God is eternal and He created the universe.

The idea of whatever it was that created this universe had to be eternal is really not up for debate. What is being debated is what was it that existed for eternity.
Knowing that the future isn't going to change isn't the same as being unable to change it. Having power doesn't require using it.
Yes, that is exactly what that means. If a god knows everything, than it knows the future. If it knows the future, it already knows all the changes to the future. If it already knows all the changes to the future, it can't change the future because it would have already known that. So either it can't change the future (not all powerful), or it can't be all knowing (but can change the future).
You are thinking of time incorrectly at least according to modern physics.
"According to the block universe theory, the universe is a giant block of all the things that ever happen at any time and at any place. On this view, the past, present, and future all exist — and are equally real." https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/201 ... lly%20real.

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #22

Post by William »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #20]
It's a propagation of waves in a medium
The is fine. "Vibrations".

It does not change what I wrote overall.

It got me thinking that thoughts are heard as words [sound] and seen as pictures but are there waves involved in that process...and if not, why/how are these non-things 'seen and heard'?

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #23

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 21:


Please see referenced post for what EarthScienceguy guy is getting at...
EarthScienceguy wrote: If this is the case then the universe cannot exist in any theory because in any theory something has to cross eternity to get to the moment that we are at right now. I do exist and I am writing this right now so it is illogical to argue that something cannot cross eternity.
So, given available data, it's more reasonable, more logical to conclude the universe existed eternally, if only in some different form.
EarthScienceguy wrote: Something had to cross eternity. There has to be something that has always existed to get to this point. For atheist Sean Carroll and others, it is an eternal "mother" universe that spawned an infinite number of universes.
Theirs is speculation, as much as any preacher's.

The data we have does not support "multiple universes", whatever the heck that means. Unless we change the definition of what it is, to be it a universe.
EarthScienceguy wrote: To Christians, God is eternal and He created the universe.
And I challenge em to show they speak truth regarding the following:

1. God exists
2. God's eternal
3. God can do stuff
4. Among that stuff God can do, creating is something God can do
5. God created the universe

Somfar all I've ever seen is a bunch of speculation and preaching from Christians regarding these challenges.
EarthScienceguy wrote: The idea of whatever it was that created this universe had to be eternal is really not up for debate.
The heck it ain't!

How arrogant must the Christian be to make a claim IN DEBATE and then declare their claims are immune to challenge?

THE LIAR LIES AND THE PREACHER PREACHES!

To claim "The universe was 'created', but my sentient, doing him stuff God always existed - and that ain't up for debate", is, I guess, to be expected from those who refuse to debate in an honorable, truthful fashion.
EarthScienceguy wrote: What is being debated is what was it that existed for eternity.
And the only conclusion supported by the data is the universe always existed, if only in it, a different form.

No sentient, 'creator' gods are supported beyond hopes, prayers, and dreams.
EarthScienceguy wrote: You are thinking of time incorrectly at least according to modern physics.
I refer folks back to the referenced post for full context, as I ask a question I once saw on this site...

Has there ever been a time when there wasn't a now?

Always seemed a deep thought, and might no relate here, so please, see the referenced post for details.
EarthScienceguy wrote:
According to the block universe theory, the universe is a giant block of all the things that ever happen at any time and at any place. On this view, the past, present, and future all exist — and are equally real." https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/201 ... lly%20real.
Included to ensure a more complete report.
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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #24

Post by JoeyKnothead »

William wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:10 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #20]
It's a propagation of waves in a medium
The is fine. "Vibrations".

It does not change what I wrote overall.

It got me thinking that thoughts are heard as words [sound] and seen as pictures but are there waves involved in that process...and if not, why/how are these non-things 'seen and heard'?
You sure got you a good thinker.

So, I'd say that yes, light or sound only really come into play as light or sound when they are perceived. I think both our definitions have validity, bit wouldn't feel shamed if the -ahem- observer of our exchanges felt you're getting you the better of it here.
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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #25

Post by William »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:31 pm
William wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:10 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #20]
It's a propagation of waves in a medium
The is fine. "Vibrations".

It does not change what I wrote overall.

It got me thinking that thoughts are heard as words [sound] and seen as pictures but are there waves involved in that process...and if not, why/how are these non-things 'seen and heard'?
You sure got you a good thinker.

So, I'd say that yes, light or sound only really come into play as light or sound when they are perceived. I think both our definitions have validity, bit wouldn't feel shamed if the -ahem- observer of our exchanges felt you're getting you the better of it here.
Well it is not a competition, I think you might agree.

I wrote a wee poem once.

"Here am I am is where I ought - examining my conscious thought."

Light and Sound [electromagnetic radiation and vibration] might perhaps be the same thing displayed in different formats.

As such, these are information. Everything is information except that which is observing the information. Consciousness is that which observes and decodes/makes sense of information.

For those who believe in emergence theory, consciousness is therefore 'information decoding/making sense of itself.

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #26

Post by Kenisaw »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:10 am [Replying to Kenisaw in post #18]
How can a being know that it is everywhere all at the same time? What if there is someplace that the being doesn't know that it doesn't know about? The problem of omnipresence is the same as omniscience. One can't know what it doesn't know. No matter how powerful the being, it can never be sure that it exists everywhere, and that it knows everything, because there could be something it doesn't know and/or someplace that exists that it doesn't exist. This is true no matter what. And, no matter how powerful the being, it can't know how MUCH it doesn't know, or how MANY places exist that it doesn't inhabit.
If God exists from eternity past til eternity future any such place would be a fabrication of someone's imagination because it could not be proved to exist and it will never be proved to exist because God is at all points time.
Even if that is all true, no being can be sure that that it knows all there is to know and inhabits every place. This is irrefutable and necessarily shows that no being, eternal or not, can ever be omniscient or omnipresent.
If God exists everywhere and at all times then any place that exists outside of God's knowledge would be a fabrication of someone's imagination because its existence will never be proved to exist.
You haven't answered the questions, and you haven't solved the contradiction. How does the god know it exists everywhere and at all times? How does any being know that there isn't anything left to know?
It's a moot point, but I would still like to ask some questions regarding your statements. How do you know your god doesn't need space to exist? Why is it a requirement that a being has to live outside space and time in order to create a universe?
Because space and time are characteristics of this universe, space and time started when this universe came into exitance.
The space and time of this universe started with this universe. That has nothing to do with outside of this universe. How do you know space and time are not characteristics outside this universe? How do you know that a being cannot create a universe unless it exists outside spacetime?
Eternal: If a being is eternal it can never get to the point in it's existence where it creates a universe. It would take an eternity before it did that, and of course there is no end to eternity. The attempt to sidestep this by claiming that a supernatural being exists in all moments at once isn't logical either. It exists both with the universe existing, and not existing? That is irrational.
Your mathematical argument of infinity is incorrect. The only thing that can cross infinity is infinity. Infinity + or - any number is still infinity. But Infinity - infinity is 0. God has to be infinite to create this universe. God exists in the present tense from infinity past to infinity future. He can see it and experience it all at the same moment.

Although time started with this universe so that is why God also does not need time to be moving to exist, so He can exist at all times.
To be mathematically accurate infinity minus infinity is undefined, not zero. No matter how much eternal existence your god has, it can't reach the amount of existence necessary to create a finite universe with a starting point. An eternal being cannot create a finite universe logically.

You then went on to do the sidestep excuse that I specifically mentioned doesn't work any better, for the reason I already stated. It is also a mathematical conundrum that I just thought about while writing this. If god exists in all of the present tense, that means that it existence is essentially zero. It basically does not exist. This moment in an eternal beings existence can be represented as 1/infinity. 1/infinity is zero. All the present tense moments are the same size sliver of existence (1/infinity), and no matter how many of them there are the summation of all those moments of existence adds up to zero. So existing in the present tense is to exist for, basically, no existence at all.
Omnipotent: At this point a supernatural critter that doesn't know all, isn't everywhere, and isn't eternal can't be considered all powerful either. But even if all knowing was possible, that would still negate being all powerful. A being that knows everything would know what happens in the future, and if it knows what happens in the future than the future cannot be changed, and if the being cant change the future than it can't be all powerful.
Your infinity argument is a moot argument because as I have expressed before God exists outside of time, so there would actually be no infinite time to cross. The passage of time is a construct of this universe.
I never said time. You have not understood what I wrote if that is how you took it. I ask that you re-read it, and then comment on it. Since you still haven't answered the question about how you know that a god exists outside of space and time, you might want to cover that first. Then you can explain why my math doesn't show that living in the now means no existence at all.
The Bible says that God is unchanging. Which would also be a natural result of being omnipresent? He does know the future. To God, the future is happening at the same time the present and the past are happening. And why would He change the future when He created the future at the same time He created the past and the present. This is why it has to be because Einstein's theory of relativity says that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously.

You may not like the idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient God but it is not illogical, for the Creator God to exist He has to have these qualities.
If a god is unchanging, you would agree that there is no point to prayer then, correct?
You are missing the point of prayer. Prayer is not to align God's desires with ours. It is to align our desires with His. We pray the way we do because we are temporal beings. We are the ones bound by the flow of time. We are the ones that do not know what will happen in the future and we take assurance in the fact that God is already in the future and directing the events of men.
So why pray then? If we don't actually have free will (which we clearly don't if the future is already determined) then there is zero point to prayer. If a MGB is all knowing then free will is impossible. You were going to heaven or hell before you were born. You might want to explain the claims of miracles then too by the way, and also why prayers are sometimes answered. If prayer is to align our desires with the god, why do they sometimes work according to the claims of believers?
Einstein did not say that. Here is where people get that from, in a letter he wrote to someone about the death of someone close (Michele Besso). “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. For us believing physicists the distinction between past, present, and future only has the meaning of an illusion, though a persistent one.” He was not stating that the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. Einstein proved that time is relative, so that it can be experienced at different rates by different people, relative to each other. Each person would still experience time the same way, but it would appear that others were experiencing it either faster or slower. Everyone would still experience it though, and experience it in a certain direction. If it were possible for a person to travel at light speed then time would stop for that person, relative to others, but the trip (no matter how long) would be over the instant it began. At no point, however, do you experience BEFORE the trip at the same time AS the trip. Einstein knew this all too well since he figured out relativity.
No the past present and future all do exist according to modern physics.



(this is a good one that explains past present and future have to exist) this saves me from having to write a book to you on this subject.

https://www.pbs.org/video/nova-the-fabr ... n-of-time/ This one is from Brain Greene and is very interesting.

Sean Carroll in lecture form.
What are you talking about? Where did I say that the past present and future do not all exist? I was pointing out that your claim about what Einstein said was false.

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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #27

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to William in post #26]
Light and Sound [electromagnetic radiation and vibration] might perhaps be the same thing displayed in different formats.
There are major differences between light and sound in terms of their mechanisms and how we perceive them. Light can behave like a particle in some instances (eg. the photoelectric effect for which Einstein's explanation won him the Nobel Prize in 1921) and like a wave in others (eg. diffraction and refraction). Unlike sound, light needs no medium to travel in and is happy to propogate in a vacuum.

Sound is a pressure wave processed by the ear and does require a medium to travel through (so if a tree fell on the moon there would be no sound even if a human were there with functioning ears to process the pressure wave ... because there would be no pressure wave). It is completely different in mechanism compared to light (photons).

Our eyes can process visible light (between about 400 nm and 800 nm) by collecting photons and converting them into electrical signals (via the retina) which travel along the optic nerve to the visual cortex where the brain processes them to produce an image, which is a perception. Pressure waves (sound) enter the ear canal and are also converted into electrical signals by the structures within the ear, and these signals are processed by a different part of the brain to produce the perception of sound.

So both light and sound have the common characteristic, in terms of how we perceive them, as being the result of specific electrical signals created by the eye and ear subsystems and routed to the appropriate area of the brain which processes them to create images and sound. But they are completely different in terms of what they are, physically.
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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #28

Post by JoeyKnothead »

DrNoGods wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:24 pm [Replying to William in post #26]
Light and Sound [electromagnetic radiation and vibration] might perhaps be the same thing displayed in different formats.
There are major differences between light and sound in terms of their mechanisms and how we perceive them...
Great post which I encourage folks to read in full.

I'm curious to know how you would consider this in terms of information.

I was thinking it's only really information on the perceiving, but William says or implies the information is there whether we perceive it or not.

He's got me thinking I'm in error.

Anyway, very post, much learning :wave:
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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #29

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Kenisaw wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:05 pm How does the god know it exists everywhere and at all times?
How does any being know that there isn't anything left to know?
How do you know space and time are not characteristics outside this universe?
How do you know that a being cannot create a universe unless it exists outside spacetime?
Just these questions alone are quite danging to the god and eternity and the universe creating argument.

I'm very curious to see how they may be affirmatively answered.
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Re: The existence of the universe requires a god

Post #30

Post by Tcg »

William wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:54 pm
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And yet, oddly enough, never migrates off the top of my refrigerator.


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