Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Wootah
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Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Wootah »

Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Miles »

.


16 of them did and 10 of them didn't.


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JoeyKnothead
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

From The OP:
Wootah wrote: Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
Where this universe was to come to be, the universal constants of this universe kinda had to already be there, insofar as we'd have us a different universe, and its universal constants. In this universe 2+2 was always gonna equal 4, no matter how much it upsets them with only three fingers.
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Wootah »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 12:29 am From The OP:
Wootah wrote: Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
Where this universe was to come to be, the universal constants of this universe kinda had to already be there, insofar as we'd have us a different universe, and its universal constants. In this universe 2+2 was always gonna equal 4, no matter how much it upsets them with only three fingers.
Are you still under probation Joey. Glad to see you around though.

So are they like God, existing before this creation? Did another universe create them?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 4:
Wootah wrote: Are you still under probation Joey? Glad to see you around though.
Yeah. I've got issues I can't seem to get a handle on without taking psychotropics, but I'm trying to be a better person. Thanks for your concern, and the kind words.

I'm also glad to see you're still around. I find you to be a strong debater, and fret having to lock horns with ya, but here we go :wave:
Wootah wrote: So are they [universal constants] like God, existing before this creation?
Couple issues there...

We have no means to confirm a god exists, much less to have existed prior to the universe.

Also, I'm not keen to use 'creation' as it applies to the universe. We have some sound indication it exists, but we have no means to confirm if it was "created". If we think along the lines of "came to be" I have no quarrels. I refer folks to where I previously said, "Where this universe was to come to be,..." I meant that as a supposition based on the premise of the OP. I have no reason to think it hasn't always existed in one form or another. As another member's signature says, "Has there ever been a time when there wasn't a 'now'?" That, to me, is time. Time is part of the universe in my way of thinking.

So my position is that the universal constants can be considered to have existed prior to this universe if this universe didn't always exist in one form or another. I - an amateur in such thinkings - propose that's a logical and reasonable conclusion, otherwise, we'd have us a different universe.
Wootah wrote: Did another universe create them?
My - if only my - definition of 'universe' constitutes all there is, so I can't see it being created by anothern. That said, if we find us anothern, I'm willing to try to come up with a new word to better reflect such a reality.
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Diagoras »

Miles wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 2:16 pm .
16 of them did and 10 of them didn't.
.
I initially wasn’t too sure what you were referring to, but then found this link:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ethansiege ... verything/

Were these the 26 you were referring to?

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Miles »

Diagoras wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 8:55 pm
Miles wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 2:16 pm .
16 of them did and 10 of them didn't.
.
I initially wasn’t too sure what you were referring to, but then found this link:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ethansiege ... verything/

Were these the 26 you were referring to?
That they are, although with tongue in cheek.


.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by William »

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]
Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
A bang is created by something. Given the vibrations which followed, and the various order these produced, I think that it is safe to assume that the universe was created.
But then, when we observe and study the affects of this intelligently designed work of art, we are shown by that, that all religious ideas of a Creator are false images, which are worshipped as true.

Those images are childish and derive from a much more ignorant platform.

Mores the pity that religions won't budge by adjusting accordingly. Sure - the universe is a creation, but 'hey presto' it was not. It is a creative achievement of extraordinary caliber and it must be assumed that there was no mistake.

No "God" being all "sorry" about having created "Humans"....stuff like that...

Remove those things from one's mind - and accomplish greater things...and don't let "the Devil" tell you any different...

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Diagoras »

Wootah wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:53 am Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
It might be useful to remind ourselves what we mean by a 'universal constant', as the term is frequently used in the fine-tuning argument to support the position that God created the universe. The link I posted in a reply above distinguishes between those constants which have dimensions (in time or space, for example), and those that don't - they are effectively a 'pure number'.

Based on current scientific knowledge about the universe's origin, there was no time or space 'before' the universe began, so it is illogical to argue that the speed of light (for example) 'existed' in any sense before the dimensions upon which it is based. But for those dimensionless constants, could we make a case that they existed?

I would argue that:

1. If they have no dimensions, they are simply numbers (by definition)
2. Numbers are abstract objects, in that they can only 'represent' physical objects or phenomena, but are not physical objects themselves (favouring Platonism over Nominalism).
3. Numbers are essential to science (to create the laws that explain observations in the physical world) - by observation.
3a. Science can make inferences about the past universe (before humans existed) based on those laws.
4. Abstract objects cannot be proven to exist independently of a human mind (from 2. above)

CONCLUSION: the dimensionless universal constants cannot be proven to have existed before the universe began.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #10

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Diagoras in post #0]

I would argue that:

1. If they have no dimensions, they are simply numbers (by definition)
2. Numbers are abstract objects, in that they can only 'represent' physical objects or phenomena, but are not physical objects themselves (favouring Platonism over Nominalism).
3. Numbers are essential to science (to create the laws that explain observations in the physical world) - by observation.
3a. Science can make inferences about the past universe (before humans existed) based on those laws.
4. Abstract objects cannot be proven to exist independently of a human mind (from 2. above)

CONCLUSION: the dimensionless universal constants cannot be proven to have existed before the universe began.
So what are you arguing was before the universe was created?

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