Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Wootah »

Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #31

Post by bluegreenearth »

William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:59 am And I am only suggesting the same emergent properties and applying these to the Universe. Why would you not apply the same critique?
I suspect there is a misunderstanding occurring here. Maybe I'm not understanding the concept you are describing.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #32

Post by William »

bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:43 pm
William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:59 am And I am only suggesting the same emergent properties and applying these to the Universe. Why would you not apply the same critique?
I suspect there is a misunderstanding occurring here. Maybe I'm not understanding the concept you are describing.
I think that is the most likely answer. How can I help?

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #33

Post by bluegreenearth »

William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:36 pm
bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:43 pm
William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:59 am And I am only suggesting the same emergent properties and applying these to the Universe. Why would you not apply the same critique?
I suspect there is a misunderstanding occurring here. Maybe I'm not understanding the concept you are describing.
I think that is the most likely answer. How can I help?
Maybe you can point me to the post where you've provided the most comprehensive description of your perspective?

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #34

Post by William »

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #33]

I will go the other way and provide bullet points based upon ET as the premise.

♦ The universe first emerged as a material non-conscious entity
♦ At some point, the non-conscious universe developed a means of having a mind and becoming conscious.
♦ As time went by, the now-conscious universe developed ways in which to use its own material to create life on Earth. Human brains were part of the result.
♦ Brains became a medium in which the conscious universe could experience itself through human [and other] forms.
♦ Mind/consciousness emerged from the human brains.
♦ Human brains, which are themselves, non-conscious appear to have been how Mind/Consciousness came to be within the human form.

The above would suggest that the universe itself is some type of brain...[perhaps the inner workings], from our perspective.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #35

Post by bluegreenearth »

William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:46 pm [Replying to bluegreenearth in post #33]

I will go the other way and provide bullet points based upon ET as the premise.

♦ The universe first emerged as a material non-conscious entity
♦ At some point, the non-conscious universe developed a means of having a mind and becoming conscious.
♦ As time went by, the now-conscious universe developed ways in which to use its own material to create life on Earth. Human brains were part of the result.
♦ Brains became a medium in which the conscious universe could experience itself through human [and other] forms.
♦ Mind/consciousness emerged from the human brains.
♦ Human brains, which are themselves, non-conscious appear to have been how Mind/Consciousness came to be within the human form.

The above would suggest that the universe itself is some type of brain...[perhaps the inner workings], from our perspective.
It is an imaginative proposal, but I cannot figure out how we could know if it is false or not. How would we even begin to determine if the universe itself was conscious? Given the fact that we've only ever observed consciousness in association with our own evolved brains, what about the universe would function as an evolved brain for us to justifiably infer that it could be conscious in the same way? According to some Eastern philosophies, our evolved brains are the way the universe experiences consciousness without it having previously evolved its own independent consciousness. I suppose, in that sense, the universe could be thought of as experiencing consciousness through every conscious brain which happens to evolve within it. However, this wouldn't allow for consciousness to have been intended by the universe but as an emergent property it happens to produce. Admittedly, I kind of like the idea of my consciousness being a way for the universe to discover and know itself but will remain agnostic about it until someone reliably demonstrates this to be the case in reality.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #36

Post by William »

bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:47 pm
William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:46 pm [Replying to bluegreenearth in post #33]

I will go the other way and provide bullet points based upon ET as the premise.

♦ The universe first emerged as a material non-conscious entity
♦ At some point, the non-conscious universe developed a means of having a mind and becoming conscious.
♦ As time went by, the now-conscious universe developed ways in which to use its own material to create life on Earth. Human brains were part of the result.
♦ Brains became a medium in which the conscious universe could experience itself through human [and other] forms.
♦ Mind/consciousness emerged from the human brains.
♦ Human brains, which are themselves, non-conscious appear to have been how Mind/Consciousness came to be within the human form.

The above would suggest that the universe itself is some type of brain...[perhaps the inner workings], from our perspective.
It is an imaginative proposal, but I cannot figure out how we could know if it is false or not. How would we even begin to determine if the universe itself was conscious?
If the universe did have a mind then it could be possible for any mind to connect with that mind. There could be ways in which the individual can connect with that mind.
Given the fact that we've only ever observed consciousness in association with our own evolved brains, what about the universe would function as an evolved brain for us to justifiably infer that it could be conscious in the same way?
I am not sure that what the statement implies is true, that humans are the only animal which can be observed to have consciousness.
But given we exist on a planet which has all these creatures on it, we cannot disregard the possibility that the planet does so because it purposefully created said creatures, and thus may itself be operating as we would expect a body with a brain to operate - with intelligence and purpose and able to produce things from other things by using those abilities.

According to some Eastern philosophies, our evolved brains are the way the universe experiences consciousness without it having previously evolved its own independent consciousness.


While the sentiment could be a truth, such thinking elevates humans to a special pleading position above all other beings. There is no evidence of this being the actual case.
It also presumes that humans are the only sentient life - not only on the planet - but in the rest of the universe too.
I suppose, in that sense, the universe could be thought of as experiencing consciousness through every conscious brain which happens to evolve within it.
However, this wouldn't allow for consciousness to have been intended by the universe but as an emergent property it happens to produce.


Or, every conscious brain which happens to evolve within it, is able to do so because the universe itself is conscious, and intended it that way.
Admittedly, I kind of like the idea of my consciousness being a way for the universe to discover and know itself but will remain agnostic about it until someone reliably demonstrates this to be the case in reality.
I see it more as the universe mind exploring the smaller spaces of its immense framework - using bodies [like planets and stars] and from there, getting into the cracks and fractures, experiencing itself from within itself as minutely as possible, and through the process, creating individuate personalities , that it can share itself with.

Perhaps even forgetting itself the further it descends into the smaller parts of itself and yet while doing so, remembering itself through the individuate personalities who consciously engage with it.

I doubt that anything other than the universe-mind could reliably demonstrate this to be the case in reality.

But it can happen sufficiently enough for the individual, in this phase of ones existence. Or it can wait until the individual moves to the next phase of experience where the veil is lifted for the individual and connection is achieved through the realization.

The best I could offer would be bullet points on ways in which I have been able to connect with - if not the universal mind - then certainly a greater aspect of it than the individual mind I am, in this human form.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #37

Post by bluegreenearth »

William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:05 pm I am not sure that what the statement implies is true, that humans are the only animal which can be observed to have consciousness.
But given we exist on a planet which has all these creatures on it, we cannot disregard the possibility that the planet does so because it purposefully created said creatures, and thus may itself be operating as we would expect a body with a brain to operate - with intelligence and purpose and able to produce things from other things by using those abilities.
The statement was not intend to propose humans as the only conscious beings. The point was that I, as a human, only perceive the existence of my own individual consciousness. I cannot perceive consciousness emerging from anyone or anything else's brain and can only presume other brains are experiencing consciousness based on my own personal experience as a brain with the emergent property of consciousness.
William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:05 pm Or, every conscious brain which happens to evolve within it, is able to do so because the universe itself is conscious, and intended it that way.
Again, if this is the case, I have no idea how anyone could know if the universe is conscious or not? As previously explained, unless I'm mistaken, I can only presume other brains are conscious based on my own personal experience as a brain exhibiting the property of consciousness. For this reason, it is difficult if not impossible for me to presume that anything without a brain could be conscious when the only example of consciousness I'm aware of is the consciousness exhibited by my own brain.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #38

Post by William »

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #37]
The statement was not intend to propose humans as the only conscious beings. The point was that I, as a human, only perceive the existence of my own individual consciousness.
Okay.

While I agree that one can only experience being conscious from ones subjective point of view, one can also acknowledge through interacting with others, that they too are experiencing being conscious from their own point of view.
In that acknowledgment comes the realization that we can, to some degree, also perceive the existence of other individual consciousnesses and interact with those consciousnesses.
I cannot perceive consciousness emerging from anyone or anything else's brain and can only presume other brains are experiencing consciousness based on my own personal experience as a brain with the emergent property of consciousness.
That of itself is only a limitation of ones abilities as consciousness experiencing being human. It does not limit ones capacity to interact with said others, feel empathy, compassion, love, hate envy etc...
Remember that the brain is interpreting an actual objective reality in a manner that consciousness can understand through words and images projected into the mind the consciousness is an aspect of, even that the mind/consciousness might be considered an immaterial abstract rather than a material one, Both are still real.
Again, if this is the case, I have no idea how anyone could know if the universe is conscious or not? As previously explained, unless I'm mistaken, I can only presume other brains are conscious based on my own personal experience as a brain exhibiting the property of consciousness. For this reason, it is difficult if not impossible for me to presume that anything without a brain could be conscious when the only example of consciousness I'm aware of is the consciousness exhibited by my own brain.
Remember that even the brain as a material object is only interpreting the objective reality onto the mind-screen for the individuate consciousness to 'see' and brains are part of the objective universe, so what we 'see' when a human brain is removed from a skull, is this type of image.

Image

If we could somehow become a conscious particle with our own brain - so small as to witness it as macro to our micro - would we see something similar as we see the universe? Something we could acknowledge as 'the workings of a brain in action'.

That is how I have come to see the universe.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #39

Post by bluegreenearth »

William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:33 pm If we could somehow become a conscious particle with our own brain - so small as to witness it as macro to our micro - would we see something similar as we see the universe? Something we could acknowledge as 'the workings of a brain in action'.

That is how I have come to see the universe.
Again, it is a very imaginative proposal, but I fail to detect any meaningful parallels between the structure and composition of my conscious brain and the structure and composition of the entire universe. Of course, this doesn't mean there aren't any parallels, but I have no choice but to remain agnostic about it since the possibility for the claim to be false cannot be tested at this time.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #40

Post by William »

bluegreenearth wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:12 am
William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:33 pm If we could somehow become a conscious particle with our own brain - so small as to witness it as macro to our micro - would we see something similar as we see the universe? Something we could acknowledge as 'the workings of a brain in action'.

That is how I have come to see the universe.
Again, it is a very imaginative proposal, but I fail to detect any meaningful parallels between the structure and composition of my conscious brain and the structure and composition of the entire universe. Of course, this doesn't mean there aren't any parallels, but I have no choice but to remain agnostic about it since the possibility for the claim to be false cannot be tested at this time.
What do you mean by 'remaining agnostic about it'? To me that means one does not know, but one keeps it in mind as a possibility.

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