Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
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Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #1Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #11[Replying to Diagoras in post #9]
Apparently not, because both depend on physical things in order to be acknowledged as real.
Since these are essential to our understanding, yet are not physical objects themselves, it can be said that dimensionless universal constants probably DID exist prior to the universe as non-physical yet fundamentally necessary device, which without - the universe as we currently understand it - would not have come to exist.
In a similar [but infinitely more expansive] manner in which a light bulb could not have existed prior to non physical ideas pertaining to what would be necessary in order to make the lightbulb real.
I think that this can be said of any abstract mind-related 'things' - such a letters and words.1. If they have no dimensions, they are simply numbers (by definition)
Again, this would apply to letters and words as well. Are sound and light also non-physical objects?2. Numbers are abstract objects, in that they can only 'represent' physical objects or phenomena, but are not physical objects themselves (favouring Platonism over Nominalism).
Apparently not, because both depend on physical things in order to be acknowledged as real.
In order for explanations to be created, letters and words are also essential to science.3. Numbers are essential to science (to create the laws that explain observations in the physical world) - by observation.
Also to note, partial evidence [fossil] of things once existing before humans existed can be inferred re what they would most likely have looked like as whole creatures.3a. Science can make inferences about the past universe (before humans existed) based on those laws.
What can be proven to exist independently of the human mind?4. Abstract objects cannot be proven to exist independently of a human mind (from 2. above)
Perhaps. Shouldn't it first be established that the human mind exists? What does that actually mean, when we know that these things the human mind creates and utilizes [abstracts] which appear to be fundamental to our understanding the Universe, do not actually exist themselves as physical objects.CONCLUSION: the dimensionless universal constants cannot be proven to have existed before the universe began.
Since these are essential to our understanding, yet are not physical objects themselves, it can be said that dimensionless universal constants probably DID exist prior to the universe as non-physical yet fundamentally necessary device, which without - the universe as we currently understand it - would not have come to exist.
In a similar [but infinitely more expansive] manner in which a light bulb could not have existed prior to non physical ideas pertaining to what would be necessary in order to make the lightbulb real.
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #12Is it logically possible for abstract thinking to be an emergent property of physical brains in which this evolved capability was naturally selected as a consequence of it providing a survival advantage? If so, then couldn't the "non physical ideas pertaining to what would be necessary in order to make the lightbulb real" have failed to emerge prior to the existence of a physical brain?William wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:35 pm Perhaps. Shouldn't it first be established that the human mind exists? What does that actually mean, when we know that these things the human mind creates and utilizes [abstracts] which appear to be fundamental to our understanding the Universe, do not actually exist themselves as physical objects.
Since these are essential to our understanding, yet are not physical objects themselves, it can be said that dimensionless universal constants probably DID exist prior to the universe as non-physical yet fundamentally necessary device, which without - the universe as we currently understand it - would not have come to exist.
In a similar [but infinitely more expansive] manner in which a light bulb could not have existed prior to non physical ideas pertaining to what would be necessary in order to make the lightbulb real.
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #13Brains are part of the process of humans being humans. It is logically possible that brains couldn't have existed without some type of non-physical idea pertaining to what would be necessary in order to make brains real.bluegreenearth wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:02 pmIs it logically possible for abstract thinking to be an emergent property of physical brains in which this evolved capability was naturally selected as a consequence of it providing a survival advantage? If so, then couldn't the "non physical ideas pertaining to what would be necessary in order to make the lightbulb real" have failed to emerge prior to the existence of a physical brain?William wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:35 pm Perhaps. Shouldn't it first be established that the human mind exists? What does that actually mean, when we know that these things the human mind creates and utilizes [abstracts] which appear to be fundamental to our understanding the Universe, do not actually exist themselves as physical objects.
Since these are essential to our understanding, yet are not physical objects themselves, it can be said that dimensionless universal constants probably DID exist prior to the universe as non-physical yet fundamentally necessary device, which without - the universe as we currently understand it - would not have come to exist.
In a similar [but infinitely more expansive] manner in which a light bulb could not have existed prior to non physical ideas pertaining to what would be necessary in order to make the lightbulb real.
Thus, while the pattern shows clearly enough that the mind appears to be emergent of brain activity, Human brains are responding to something real which it is projecting onto said mind as part of the process of interpreting incoming data into knowledge.
The senses assist the brain with this process.
But can we be certain that the mind is emergent of the brain or if it is the other way around?
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #14If the brain was emergent of the mind, it would not be reasonable to expect brain injuries to have detectable effects on the mind. Since we observe brain injuries as having detectable effects on the mind, it is reasonable to infer that the brain precedes the mind and not the other way around. Can we be certain of this? No, but we cannot be certain about any such inferences.
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #15[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #14]
An injured brain just tells us that an instrument is broken and cannot function as intended.
It doesn't tell us anything about the mind - only that the brain is injured.
Yes. We cannot be certain that an injured brain has any detectable effects on the mind, since the mind is immaterial. We know it exists but we cannot be certain what 'it' actually is, or even if it is something that is peculiar to the individuals brain [therefore an emergent property of individual brains] or individual brains just have a natural access to it due to all things material [therefore brains] being emergent properties of The Mind.If the brain was emergent of the mind, it would not be reasonable to expect brain injuries to have detectable effects on the mind. If the brain was emergent of the mind, it would not be reasonable to expect brain injuries to have detectable effects on the mind. Since we observe brain injuries as having detectable effects on the mind, it is reasonable to infer that the brain precedes the mind and not the other way around. Can we be certain of this? No, but we cannot be certain about any such inferences.
An injured brain just tells us that an instrument is broken and cannot function as intended.
It doesn't tell us anything about the mind - only that the brain is injured.
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #16How would you determine if a mind was injured?William wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:09 pm Yes. We cannot be certain that an injured brain has any detectable effects on the mind, since the mind is immaterial. We know it exists but we cannot be certain what 'it' actually is, or even if it is something that is peculiar to the individuals brain [therefore an emergent property of individual brains] or individual brains just have a natural access to it due to all things material [therefore brains] being emergent properties of The Mind.
An injured brain just tells us that an instrument is broken and cannot function as intended.
It doesn't tell us anything about the mind - only that the brain is injured.
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #17As far as we know;bluegreenearth wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:08 amHow would you determine if a mind was injured?William wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:09 pm Yes. We cannot be certain that an injured brain has any detectable effects on the mind, since the mind is immaterial. We know it exists but we cannot be certain what 'it' actually is, or even if it is something that is peculiar to the individuals brain [therefore an emergent property of individual brains] or individual brains just have a natural access to it due to all things material [therefore brains] being emergent properties of The Mind.
An injured brain just tells us that an instrument is broken and cannot function as intended.
It doesn't tell us anything about the mind - only that the brain is injured.
Nothing is known about the mind that anyone could determine that it even can be injured.
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #18What is up with these questions?
If there was no space before the universe, then how could something within the universe exist before the universe itself existed?
?????????
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #19Given the above implication, what is the justification for presuming the mind even exists? In other words, is nothing known about the mind that anyone could determine if it even exists in realty as anything other than the emergent property of a brain?
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Post #20We know the mind exists. We dont know if it is an emergent property of the brain.bluegreenearth wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:31 amGiven the above implication, what is the justification for presuming the mind even exists? In other words, is nothing known about the mind that anyone could determine if it even exists in realty as anything other than the emergent property of a brain?