Abiogenesis and Probabilities

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Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #1

Post by DrNoGods »

I'm creating a new thread here to continue debate on a post made by EarthScience guy on another thread (Science and Religion > Artificial life: can it be created?, post 17). This post challenged probability calculations in an old Talkorigins article that I had linked in that thread:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

Are the arguments (on creationist views) and probabilities presented reasonable in the Talkorigins article? If not, why not?
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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #431

Post by Difflugia »

Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:38 am1. Aah, when i said sickle cell, i meant the DISEASE.
Why has the disease increased with increase in population?
Because there are more people, so more cases. Or do you mean relative to the population? Maybe link something with the statistics you're claiming are true.
Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:38 am2. If heterezygouz states offer afvantages against malaria in certain environments, why is it that the frequency of heterozygous individidual is not increasing significantly?
If homozygous cases are increasing, then heterozygous carriers are also increasing because that's the only way to get homozygous individuals.

You see, when a heterozygous man and a heterozygous woman love each other very much, half of their children are heterozygous carriers and one fourth are homozygous for the sickle cell allele.
Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:41 amIf natural selection were true, we would expect 'single copy' individuals to be more in certain populations, isn't it?
They are.
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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #432

Post by Noose001 »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:13 am
Because there are more people, so more cases. Or do you mean relative to the population?
What's the role of 'natural selection'? Does evolution only work with small populations?
They are.
Where?

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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #433

Post by Noose001 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:43 am

I'll defer to Difflugia's more informative post up there a couple up.
So can we say natural selection doesn't work as expected?
Clearly, a mutation happened resulting in a killer disease, but after so many generations, the killer disease is still here with us.

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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

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Post by Difflugia »

Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:31 amWhat's the role of 'natural selection'? Does evolution only work with small populations?
What are you talking about?
Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:31 am
They are.
Where?
What is it with creationists expecting everyone else to do their homework for them? The first hit from that Google search gives us this:
Sickle cell trait (SCT) is a benign condition in which the affected individual has only one abnormal hemoglobin beta gene allele. This is in contrast to sickle cell disease (SCD), in which the affected individual has two abnormal hemoglobin beta gene alleles. Unlike individuals with SCD, those with SCT do not have symptoms related to sickling and consequently tend to have a better quality of life than patients who suffer from SCD. Patients with SCT do not have an increased risk of mortality compared to the general population. This activity reviews the evaluation and management of sickle cell trait and highlights the role of the interprofessional team in improving care for affected patients.
Sickle cell trait is more prevalent in people who are of African-descent and also whose ancestors come from tropical and sub-tropical regions where malaria is endemic.The prevalence rates of sickle cell trait in the United States is 9% among African American which is about 3 million people, and 0.2% among Caucasians. Worldwide, it is estimated that there are 300 million people with sickle cell trait and one-third of this number are in sub-Saharan Africa. The prevalence of sickle cell trait is higher in areas where malaria is endemic. Gibson and colleague mentions that the prevalence is as high as 25% in some part of Africa and 60% in Saudi Arabia. Because of the high migration of people from areas of high prevalence like Africa, Middle East, the prevalence of both sickle cell trait and disease will increase in the western part of the world.
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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #435

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:36 am So can we say natural selection doesn't work as expected?
'Pends on what we're expecting.

I'm the case of sickle cell, Difflugia's post there shows us we can expect certain outcomes under certain conditions.
Clearly, a mutation happened resulting in a killer disease, but after so many generations, the killer disease is still here with us.
But notice, a single copy confers a benefit against another killer disease.

So, one copy, survive malaria, live to go to the prom.

Two copies, not so much.

It's the passing of one copy that "allows" the disease to continue down the line. It only becomes deadly if both parents pass their single copy.
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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #436

Post by Noose001 »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:43 am

What is it with creationists expecting everyone else to do their homework for them? The first hit from that Google search gives us this:
Sickle cell trait (SCT) is a benign condition in which the affected individual has only one abnormal hemoglobin beta gene allele. This is in contrast to sickle cell disease (SCD), in which the affected individual has two abnormal hemoglobin beta gene alleles. Unlike individuals with SCD, those with SCT do not have symptoms related to sickling and consequently tend to have a better quality of life than patients who suffer from SCD. Patients with SCT do not have an increased risk of mortality compared to the general population. This activity reviews the evaluation and management of sickle cell trait and highlights the role of the interprofessional team in improving care for affected patients.
Sickle cell trait is more prevalent in people who are of African-descent and also whose ancestors come from tropical and sub-tropical regions where malaria is endemic.The prevalence rates of sickle cell trait in the United States is 9% among African American which is about 3 million people, and 0.2% among Caucasians. Worldwide, it is estimated that there are 300 million people with sickle cell trait and one-third of this number are in sub-Saharan Africa. The prevalence of sickle cell trait is higher in areas where malaria is endemic. Gibson and colleague mentions that the prevalence is as high as 25% in some part of Africa and 60% in Saudi Arabia. Because of the high migration of people from areas of high prevalence like Africa, Middle East, the prevalence of both sickle cell trait and disease will increase in the western part of the world.
You read but did not comprehend my argument.
These are only statistics, you need to show an INCREASE of people with sickle cell tarits. 'As high as 25%' can still be a decrease.

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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #437

Post by The Barbarian »

Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:14 am
The Barbarian wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:41 am It has been suggested that Broca’s and Wernicke’s areas are unique to humans. Broca’s and Wernicke’s areas are cortical areas specialized for production and comprehension, respectively, of human language. Broca’s area is found in the left inferior frontal gyrus and Wernicke’s area is located in the left posterior superior temporal gyrus. Non-human primates (both apes and monkeys) possess cortical areas that are in similar locations to and have similar cytoarchitecture as Wernicke’s and Broca’s areas in humans, and are probably homologous to them...In both macaques and humans, this region is likely involved in producing orofacial expressions and in understanding the intentions behind orofacial expressions of others. In humans, it has evolved an additional communicative function, namely speech production. However, it does not appear to be involved in monkey vocalizations, which are instead mediated by limbic and brainstem areas. Regarding Wernicke’s area, evidence suggests that the left superior temporal gyrus is specialized for processing species-specific calls in macaques just as it is specialized for speech comprehension in humans, although the specific anatomical focus of this macaque specialization is still in doubt.
https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/top ... ckes-areas

According to the authors, during primate evolution area Tpt became increasingly connected with inferoparietal regions and these contributed to a link between the auditory system and a parieto-
premotor circuit with incipient Broca’s area. A second parallel pathway may also have evolved directly between the precursor of Wernicke’s area and prefrontal cortex. Hypothetically, Broca’s
area developed, in part, as a phonological rehearsal device entailed in generating complex vocalizations. Eventually, an evolving parieto-premotor circuit contributed to the origin of a
lexicon (perhaps at the level mastered by apes schooled in American Sign Language). Syntax and the generation of discourse, however, emerged only later in conjunction with further elaboration of these circuits (Aboitiz and García 1997). Because Aboitiz and García’s model is well-reasoned and based on comparative and experimental evidence, their observations warrant serious
consideration.

The anatomical arrangement of the language areas fits this large-scale cortico-cortico network and can be described as part of it. In this sense, the neural architecture involved in language is
embedded in a complex system of large-scale connectivity that is the hallmark of the primate brain, and therefore should not be considered as an isolated system working independently of
similarly organized cortico-cortico networks (Aboitiz and García 1997:388).
https://ibro.org/wp-content/uploads/201 ... s-Area.pdf

The neuroanatomy of speech areas in the brain for making and understanding speech are much more ancient than our species. The fact that chimpanzees are competent in language and can converse with us in sign language indicates that human speech evolved out of simipler and earlier functions.
Very nice suggestions but they are meaningless. Think?!
You're probably not going to like how this turns out...
1. Deaf people do not speak 'languages' not because they have not developed those left and right parts in the brain you qouted in your piece; they don't speak language(s) simply because they do not get a chance to hear and LEARN a language.
You seem to be arguing with yourself here. I never made the claim you're talking about. Moreover, you're wrong; there are totally deaf people who have learned to speak, albeit with diffiiculty.
But there's more:
So, human languages are acquired from external knowledgeable sources through learning/teaching.
So how did language begin, if there was no language to acquire from external knowledgeable sources through learning/teaching? I don't think you've thought about this very well.
2. Sign language is sign language, it can never morph into 'human language', not in a billion years.
It is human language. The same centers in the brain that make spoken language possible, are also those that make sign languages possible.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... n_Language

By your thinking, typing out words on a keyboard and reading words on a monitor are not using language. You sure you want to keep making that claim?

I realize you don't understand how complex a human language is. But you could have learned a little about it before you started telling us about it. Could have saved you some embarrassment.

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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #438

Post by Difflugia »

Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:17 amYou read but did not comprehend my argument.
These are only statistics, you need to show an INCREASE of people with sickle cell tarits. 'As high as 25%' can still be a decrease.
Probably not. You didn't give me much to go on. So far, the extent of your argument is:
Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:39 amSickle cell anaemia, a killer disease which is as old as the human race has increased with increase in population. It certainly kills even before one is able to sire an offspring?
Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:38 am1. Aah, when i said sickle cell, i meant the DISEASE.
Why has the disease increased with increase in population?

2. If heterezygouz states offer afvantages against malaria in certain environments, why is it that the frequency of heterozygous individidual is not increasing significantly?
Noose001 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:36 amSo can we say natural selection doesn't work as expected?
Clearly, a mutation happened resulting in a killer disease, but after so many generations, the killer disease is still here with us.
I think you have at least one fundamental misunderstanding of the sickle cell allele and its relation to genetics, so your rhetorical questions mean something completely different to you than they do to everyone else. Instead of relying on rhetorical questions, maybe you could just explain in detail what you think is happening and why it's inconsistent with natural selection.
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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #439

Post by Noose001 »

The Barbarian wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:27 am
You're probably not going to like how this turns out...
1. Deaf people do not speak 'languages' not because they have not developed those left and right parts in the brain you qouted in your piece; they don't speak language(s) simply because they do not get a chance to hear and LEARN a language.
You seem to be arguing with yourself here. I never made the claim you're talking about. Moreover, you're wrong; there are totally deaf people who have learned to speak, albeit with diffiiculty.
But there's more:
So, human languages are acquired from external knowledgeable sources through learning/teaching.
So how did language begin, if there was no language to acquire from external knowledgeable sources through learning/teaching? I don't think you've thought about this very well.
2. Sign language is sign language, it can never morph into 'human language', not in a billion years.
It is human language. The same centers in the brain that make spoken language possible, are also those that make sign languages possible.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... n_Language

By your thinking, typing out words on a keyboard and reading words on a monitor are not using language. You sure you want to keep making that claim?

I realize you don't understand how complex a human language is. But you could have learned a little about it before you started telling us about it. Could have saved you some embarrassment.
You missed it. I did not mean human communication methods when i said 'human language'. I know we have body language, sign language and the rest but what i meant is words with specific pronunciation and meaning.

A deaf man learnt a language? Which one and how?

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Re: Abiogenesis and Probabilities

Post #440

Post by Noose001 »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:33 am

I think you have at least one fundamental misunderstanding of the sickle cell allele and its relation to genetics, so your rhetorical questions mean something completely different to you than they do to everyone else. Instead of relying on rhetorical questions, maybe you could just explain in detail what you think is happening and why it's inconsistent with natural selection.
We are on natural selection & beneficial mutation (evolution) using sickle cell anaemia/malaria to explain.

It is expected that in areas with high levels of malaria, the population with sickle cell trait will INCREASE and those without will DIMINISH. So whatever study you are quoting should clearly show an increase in one and a decrease in another.

My point is, even in malaria endemic areas, there's no increase in people with the trait, there can never be an increase in frequency because it is a recessive gene. An increase will only be attributed to population increase and not natural selection.

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