Absurdity of the universe without a creator

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Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #1

Post by EarthScienceguy »

How is the universe not absurd (or possible) without a creator in light of the following?

1. The universe without a creator breaks the law of conservation of mass and energy.

The question that needs to be answered: Where did all of the energy come from? I am using space and energy as synonymous terms because energy comes from space.

2. The universe without a creator breaks the second law of thermodynamics.

The question that needs to be answered is: Why we are individuals and not a Boltzmann brain?

3. The universe without a creator breaks all laws of probability.

The question that needs to be answered is: Why do the constants of nature have the values that they do? Or why do we have laws of nature?

There are more but we will stop at three.

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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #91

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:23 pm
This is pretty much my response as well.

Either something (including potential) always existed, or at some point, something came into being from nothing. Either one is difficult to wrap one's head around, but neither one means a god, for certain.
Actually, it is for certain. You already admitted that infinite regression is impossible...and based on the fact that, if the universe is past-eternal, it would HAVE to have gone through infinite regression, which would deem the existence of the universe impossible.

So the only thing you are left with after the negation of the universe is God.

Now certainly, you may not like where you wound up...but you simply have to bite the bullet on that one.
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:23 pm I'll give Venom's interpretation my most logically chivalrous take, and say that there being a Creator makes slightly more sense, because if we have intelligence and a will, we could be talking about that being coming from another universe where the fundamental rules are different.
You were impressing me until I got to the "we could be talking about that being coming from another universe where the fundamental rules are different" part.
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:23 pm Perhaps there, things come into being from nothing all the time; no big deal. They also vanish without warning.
Not at all possible in any world.
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:23 pm But it's relatively easy to have a very powerful being - a god, let's say - because as soon as you've got a configuration with intelligence and a will, it can preserve itself against the chaos of this alien universe.

So this very powerful being opens the way into a universe with permanence. Since here, things don't have past-eternal existence, and things don't spring into being from nothing, this universe is empty. But permanence is a good thing if you can take matter/energy/potential from the chaos universe where chaos is liable to gobble it back up, and put it into the one with permanence.
Lost me.
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:23 pm However, this doesn't mean this creator has anything to do with morality or that we should do what it says.
Sounds like deism to me.

And what you just stated is exactly what I suspected; the issue that unbelievers have with theism really comes down to morality. They don't like the idea of being morally accountable to someone.

It is more easier to come to grips with a God who exists and doesn't give a hoot what you do with your life, than a God who exists and is telling you who you can/can't sleep with.

That is really what is boils down to, as I think you've inadvertently admitted.
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:23 pm And just because we can picture a very strong membrane between universes that would be incredibly unlikely to be punctured without intelligence and a will (much like it's unlikely for there to be airplanes to lift us up against gravity without a will), this doesn't mean a chaos universe can't do that at random. We could still be an ejection from a chaos universe into a universe with permanence. Or permanence could even be an illusion, a blip within a chaotic universe.
Lost.
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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #92

Post by Purple Knight »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:17 pmSo the only thing you are left with after the negation of the universe is God.

Now certainly, you may not like where you wound up...but you simply have to bite the bullet on that one.
And then God is past-eternal, which is just as much of a nail-biter as the universe being past-eternal. Let's say you're right and we've got a perfect argument for God here. Okay, God isn't sentient, or it's dead, or hibernating, and we're all in its body, which comprises the universe. Now we've got a universe that's past-eternal, on your argument that it can't be, therefore God.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:17 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:23 pm Perhaps there, things come into being from nothing all the time; no big deal. They also vanish without warning.
Not at all possible in any world.
I'm not sure we can say it's impossible. Just because things don't spring into being from nothing here, and things don't vanish without warning here, doesn't mean it's impossible. We have permanence. We can't say for sure other universes have permanence. We have logic. Perhaps other universes don't function that way. This would be a good way to get a creator that made this universe.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:17 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:23 pm However, this doesn't mean this creator has anything to do with morality or that we should do what it says.
Sounds like deism to me.

And what you just stated is exactly what I suspected; the issue that unbelievers have with theism really comes down to morality.
For me it does come down to morality. I've always said that if God exists, so be it, but it only has value to me if it can help me be moral. See?
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:53 pmIn other words, unless God provides us with direct evidence as to which prophet is correct - which morality and moral laws we really ought to follow - he's a super-entity with a gameshow, not a god, and there's no point worrying about whether he'll damn us to Hell or not because he's going to do it or he's not and we have no control over that. The control we have - to pick a random door with NO INFORMATION AS TO WHICH IS CORRECT - is an illusion designed to foment the worry and torture us further. This thing, this entity, which may well exist, is not god, and we not only shouldn't fear it... we really can't. We can't fear its arbitrary judgments or its gameshow of pick-a-prophet any more than we can fear getting sucked out into space or the world exploding. Random. No control. No point in any fear.

Conversely, a fair God? You can fear that. But that fear means you already have the information you need to make the right choice and you chose to do evil instead. Maybe you committed murder. You know that's wrong. Yes, you know it. If somebody on the side of justice is watching and they're powerful enough you're going to be punished. But those two grapes? No, we don't know that's wrong. We can't possibly know that. The truth is that everything but coldblooded murder and racism are grey areas and everyone has their own opinion, and if God is going to make it a guessing game then he's not a fair god and I'm not the star of his little gameshow. I can be afraid I'll pick the wrong door but what good does it do me? None.
Now, if I inherently agreed with everything God says, there would be no problem and I wouldn't need God. Remember, I'm trying to be moral, not get into Heaven.

If I disagree, and I disregard my intuition and follow what someone else says, what is the value of that? I could as easily be trusting evil as good. Maybe the person I'm supposed to trust really knows better than I do, but I maintain that the value of the decision to disregard what I think morality is and trust someone else is still morally worthless.

Imagine I'm standing atop a cliff with Lucifer and Jehovah, both somehow made mortal and struggling against each other. Jehovah says, look, there, in Lucifer's hand, he has a vial of poison to do evil, you must push him off the cliff. I don't know these fellows from Adam and I can't see what's in the second fellow's hand. Lucifer then says, I do have a vial, but this is the cure for cancer to do good, that other one, he lies, he wishes to destroy the vial to do evil, you must push him off the cliff.

So let's say I choose rightly and push Lucifer off the cliff. He really had a vial of poison, so ding, ding, ding I chose correctly, I win, wow!

Except that I refuse to believe morality can be reduced to a gameshow. Pick right, and win by luck? Doesn't that seem like morality to you?

If so, then the choice to simply obey someone I disagree with because I think it might be the right answer is morally worthless.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:17 pmIt is more easier to come to grips with a God who exists and doesn't give a hoot what you do with your life, than a God who exists and is telling you who you can/can't sleep with.

That is really what is boils down to, as I think you've inadvertently admitted.
I admit that willingly. In fact I've admitted before that it's about morality. In fact, I've even said, we have to give these seemingly absurd rules of religion the benefit of the doubt, or at least be logically chivalrous toward them, because they have worked for thousands of years.

We don't like to admit, for example, that allowing males to pair-bond can destroy a civilisation. Or at least, it could, in ancient times. Females have evolved for the specific task of bearing children and are generally not as proficient at other tasks, especially physical ones. When you allow a male-male pair, it can outcompete male-female pairs. And because it does not produce offspring, it is logical to prohibit that pair and save those niches for offspring-producing male-female pairs. None of this is very nice, none of this is very PC, and it's definitely not fair, but I like to give people the credit of being rational rather than declare them irrational without consideration.

I give every such rule its full, complete, logically chivalrous consideration, even when it's damning to me to do so, and I may be banned for what I just said about homosexuality and the value of females. However, I don't think any of that means God can help me be moral. I've even said in other threads, I don't have a problem with the existence of superbeings. I say I'm an atheist because I find it to be impossible that any of these potential superbeings have to do with morality, because they can't help me be moral if they demand obedience without understanding, so they can't be God. So you're at least partially right.

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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #93

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #92]

That is a lot to cover, which I don't have the brain energy to cover. The bottom line is, if God doesn't exist, then conversations about what God's moral standards becomes meaningless.

If you don't believe in God, then don't believe in God. If you are searching for the truth, then I am here for you.

I will ask the Holy Spirit to guide me to answer all of your questions to your satisfaction.
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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

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Post by brunumb »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:29 pm I will ask the Holy Spirit to guide me to answer all of your questions to your satisfaction.
Just ask the Holy Spirit to answer all of our questions directly and you won't have to do anything. :D
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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #95

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

brunumb wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:49 pm
Just ask the Holy Spirit to answer all of our questions directly and you won't have to do anything. :D
Our? If you aren't a member of Jesus' Club, you aren't eligible for the bulk salvation of goodies.
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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #96

Post by JoeyKnothead »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:27 pm Our? If you aren't a member of Jesus' Club, you aren't eligible for the bulk salvation of goodies.
And if you ain't in the group that can show you speak truth, well how bout that.
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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #97

Post by William »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:09 am
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:27 pm Our? If you aren't a member of Jesus' Club, you aren't eligible for the bulk salvation of goodies.
And if you ain't in the group that can show you speak truth, well how bout that.
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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #98

Post by Purple Knight »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:29 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #92]

That is a lot to cover, which I don't have the brain energy to cover. The bottom line is, if God doesn't exist, then conversations about what God's moral standards becomes meaningless.

If you don't believe in God, then don't believe in God. If you are searching for the truth, then I am here for you.

I will ask the Holy Spirit to guide me to answer all of your questions to your satisfaction.
I can cut it down a lot. Bottom line is, God says, trust me, do what I say, trust that I am moral.

And if I'm just disregarding my own judgment and trusting someone, I can pick the devil as easily as god.

I might really be morally insufficient to make my own judgment. Everything I think might be wrong. God might be right. And I might pick God, thereby choose right and win, but I don't believe morality is a gameshow. I don't believe there's any luck factor at all in who goes to Heaven. To me that's absurd.

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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #99

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:17 pm How is the universe not absurd (or possible) without a creator in light of the following?

1. The universe without a creator breaks the law of conservation of mass and energy.

The question that needs to be answered: Where did all of the energy come from? I am using space and energy as synonymous terms because energy comes from space.

2. The universe without a creator breaks the second law of thermodynamics.

The question that needs to be answered is: Why we are individuals and not a Boltzmann brain?

3. The universe without a creator breaks all laws of probability.

The question that needs to be answered is: Why do the constants of nature have the values that they do? Or why do we have laws of nature?

There are more but we will stop at three.
And this is only scratching the surface!

The reality is (and this did come as a huge intellectual shock to me when I was an atheist) that the presence of the universe simply cannot have a scientific explanation, the necessary things for such an explanation could not have existed.

For the explanation to be a scientific one, the things whose existence we want to explain must already have existed and if that's the case then we have not explained them at all.

So to explain the presence of laws of physics for example we need laws of physics to already exist (because they are what drive scientific explanations) but if we presuppose the thing we are explaining then we obviously do not really have an explanation.

It is a logical absurdity to believe we can explain the universe scientifically, it leads to contradictions and infinite regress, neither of which are tolerated in true scientific theories.

So we are left with three options:

1. The presence of the universe really does not have an explanation.
2. The universe (in some form or other) has simply always existed.
3. The presence of the universe has an explanation but not a scientific explanation.

All we can do is pick one of these.

Both 1. and 2. though are less appealing than 3.

1. Basically tells us that science fails as a means of explaining the natural world and if we are prepared to admit that then we must abandon science altogether as a means of really explaining anything.

2. Basically leads to material infinites existing when the very concept of infinity is a product of the human mind. Infinities in physics always indicate a problem (singularities) and any explanation that relies on or leads to infinities is never acceptable.

This leaves only 3, there is an explanation but we must be willing to abandon science, laws, matter, fields, energy as the basis for the explanation.

If one is willing to abandon science as the means of explanation then and only then can we begin to understand.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: Absurdity of the universe without a creator

Post #100

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #99]
So we are left with three options:

1. The presence of the universe really does not have an explanation.
2. The universe (in some form or other) has simply always existed.
3. The presence of the universe has an explanation but not a scientific explanation.

All we can do is pick one of these.
You've left out this option:

4) We don't yet know how the universe came into existence so cannot define the mechanism yet. It is an open problem.

The answer may well be a scientific one, and just because humans have yet to positively elucidate the mechanism in no way rules out a potential scientific explanation. Unsolved problems do not automatically default to a supernatural explanation ... the mistake so many theists make when trying to advance arguments like this (eg. the ontological argument for God is an example).
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