How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1111

Post by Purple Knight »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:42 pmTheir hypothesis is that these constant attempts to scam you have very real effects on your psyche and view of others (basically it makes us all distrustful). Play that out for years and you end up with a society where no one trusts anyone outside of their tribe and everyone generally assumes everyone not in their tribe is out to get them. Thus you get "people in group X are evil" rather than "I disagree with people in group X on some things".
If let to play out, it's going to be reduced waaaaay down below tribalism, though, at least modern concepts of tribalism, because, as you can see, it's easy to fake membership in a tribe like Christianity and exploit away. The only time you'll be able to let your guard down will be with your actual tribe, as in, cave-man-style tribe, as in, genetic interest, as in, your own actual blood relatives and those who will definitely mate with them. And even they may play you if they can get ahead, though you'll see a re-emergence of in-group altruism when tribes that don't scam internally flourish well above those whose members are always looking to sell the others out to get personally ahead... but I think that'll take time, depending on how well and thoroughly our current system cleans out our natural tribal altruists. Right now, tribal altruism is demonised and deliberately hunted to extinction where simple selfishness is often praised.
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:42 pmAnd yes, a big driver behind that is unfettered capitalism, which provides the environment in which this scam culture not only persists, but flourishes. But I also think the basic human behaviors that drive it will exist in just about any economic system, with some being better than others at keeping it in check.
You'd have to go so far to contain it that I honestly doubt it'd be worth it. Basically you'd have to remove money, which is the vessel whereby everyone is set in direct competition with everyone else. In a system without money, the boatmaker and the fisherman are allies, occupying disparate niches that neither can fill fully himself, and are set in natural alliance. But in a system with money, note that because of the way money naturally adjusts its value, the coin of the realm is actually relative success, which is innately poisonous to this natural alliance. The boatmaker and fisherman must now keep a close eye on one another, each striving to keep the other in a state of de facto slavery where he just barely keeps himself alive, because if he does more than that, his gain of money plays on the same stage as the other, his new wad competing for the same goods and raising their prices.

In other words, to paraphrase Syndrome, if everyone is successful, then no one is.

Unfortunately money is so useful and people are so incapable of seeing this huge glaring drawback where it actually does make the world a zero-sum game, I don't think anyone would ever consider removing it.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1462
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 337 times
Been thanked: 906 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1112

Post by Jose Fly »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:33 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:42 pmTheir hypothesis is that these constant attempts to scam you have very real effects on your psyche and view of others (basically it makes us all distrustful). Play that out for years and you end up with a society where no one trusts anyone outside of their tribe and everyone generally assumes everyone not in their tribe is out to get them. Thus you get "people in group X are evil" rather than "I disagree with people in group X on some things".
If let to play out, it's going to be reduced waaaaay down below tribalism, though, at least modern concepts of tribalism, because, as you can see, it's easy to fake membership in a tribe like Christianity and exploit away. The only time you'll be able to let your guard down will be with your actual tribe, as in, cave-man-style tribe, as in, genetic interest, as in, your own actual blood relatives and those who will definitely mate with them. And even they may play you if they can get ahead, though you'll see a re-emergence of in-group altruism when tribes that don't scam internally flourish well above those whose members are always looking to sell the others out to get personally ahead... but I think that'll take time, depending on how well and thoroughly our current system cleans out our natural tribal altruists. Right now, tribal altruism is demonised and deliberately hunted to extinction where simple selfishness is often praised.
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:42 pmAnd yes, a big driver behind that is unfettered capitalism, which provides the environment in which this scam culture not only persists, but flourishes. But I also think the basic human behaviors that drive it will exist in just about any economic system, with some being better than others at keeping it in check.
You'd have to go so far to contain it that I honestly doubt it'd be worth it. Basically you'd have to remove money, which is the vessel whereby everyone is set in direct competition with everyone else. In a system without money, the boatmaker and the fisherman are allies, occupying disparate niches that neither can fill fully himself, and are set in natural alliance. But in a system with money, note that because of the way money naturally adjusts its value, the coin of the realm is actually relative success, which is innately poisonous to this natural alliance. The boatmaker and fisherman must now keep a close eye on one another, each striving to keep the other in a state of de facto slavery where he just barely keeps himself alive, because if he does more than that, his gain of money plays on the same stage as the other, his new wad competing for the same goods and raising their prices.

In other words, to paraphrase Syndrome, if everyone is successful, then no one is.

Unfortunately money is so useful and people are so incapable of seeing this huge glaring drawback where it actually does make the world a zero-sum game, I don't think anyone would ever consider removing it.
Again, very well put.

I can't disagree with what you say either. However, now that I've entered my late 50's I've noticed myself not really caring about things like that as much as I used to. I'm starting to appreciate that most of the things that go on in the world are beyond my ability to control or even influence. So I'm starting to take a "Just enjoy what's left of my ride" approach.

Yeah it's a bit selfish, and I do still help folks on an individual basis when I can, but I've become a bit more Zen....take things and people as they are. And yes, that's a view born of privilege, but I can't do much to change that either.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1113

Post by Purple Knight »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:53 pmYeah it's a bit selfish, and I do still help folks on an individual basis when I can, but I've become a bit more Zen....take things and people as they are. And yes, that's a view born of privilege, but I can't do much to change that either.
No, you ought to. Nobody can push an avalanche back uphill, and the more people that try, the more people that just get caught under it.

The only real sin is for the fellow screaming at the mountain to not be caught up in it.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1114

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:05 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:53 pmYeah it's a bit selfish, and I do still help folks on an individual basis when I can, but I've become a bit more Zen....take things and people as they are. And yes, that's a view born of privilege, but I can't do much to change that either.
No, you ought to. Nobody can push an avalanche back uphill, and the more people that try, the more people that just get caught under it.

The only real sin is for the fellow screaming at the mountain to not be caught up in it.
Wow

That works in so many ways.

Edit in: You got you this thing where your eyeballs see EVERYTHING!

I can't tell how many times it is, you make me see stuff different than I ever did.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 862 times
Been thanked: 1265 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1115

Post by Diogenes »

Evolution has never seemed crazy to me. Long before I studied it, as a five year old at the zoo I noticed the strong resemblance of apes to people (which should not have been surprising since people are apes). In fact to my five year old's eye some pople had noses that looked like the gorilla's. And the gorilla could get the same expression on his face.
From then on whenever I looked at animals, particularly mammals, I could find the anatomical equivalents we shared. Humans look for patterns and they are easy to find when we compare animals to each other. For me, the only crazy thing is how some people don't understand or see the obvious truth of evolution.

What seems particularly crazy is the idea that each species was created out of nothing, as fully formed adult organisms. From the first time I heard it, also perhaps as a five year old, the creation story in Genesis is what seemed crazy.
___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

User avatar
EarthScienceguy
Guru
Posts: 2192
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 43 times
Contact:

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1116

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1115]
What seems particularly crazy is the idea that each species was created out of nothing, as fully formed adult organisms. From the first time I heard it, also perhaps as a five-year-old, the creation story in Genesis is what seemed crazy.
But that is what is seen in the rock record, species, and phyla appearing abruptly in the rock record. This is the reason that punctuated equilibrium was developed.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1117

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Diogenes wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:24 pm Evolution has never seemed crazy to me. Long before I studied it, as a five year old at the zoo I noticed the strong resemblance of apes to people (which should not have been surprising since people are apes). In fact to my five year old's eye some pople had noses that looked like the gorilla's. And the gorilla could get the same expression on his face.
From then on whenever I looked at animals, particularly mammals, I could find the anatomical equivalents we shared. Humans look for patterns and they are easy to find when we compare animals to each other. For me, the only crazy thing is how some people don't understand or see the obvious truth of evolution.
This is nigh on exactly why I've been a lifelong amateur animalologist. Read Darwin my senior year of sixth grade, and it just connected so many dots I couldn't put it down.
What seems particularly crazy is the idea that each species was created out of nothing, as fully formed adult organisms. From the first time I heard it, also perhaps as a five year old, the creation story in Genesis is what seemed crazy.
Same. I can't get through the first chapter or two before my detector sets to hollering.

Animalologist. Lol
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14003
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1118

Post by William »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1115]
Evolution has never seemed crazy to me. Long before I studied it, as a five year old at the zoo I noticed the strong resemblance of apes to people (which should not have been surprising since people are apes).
I think that the eye sees what it wants to see, rather than what is actually there under the flesh and bone of it all - simply because - until the eye sees - it goes along with what available information there is, but even when the information is made available, the self-identity prior to the information being revealed has a difficult time of it in changing ones understand of ones self.

So - on the surface the similarities between apes and humans is undeniable, but what is also undeniable are the vast differences which make the similarities fundamentally different and therefore quiet the absurd thing to be equating ones self with.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1462
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 337 times
Been thanked: 906 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1119

Post by Jose Fly »

Diogenes wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:24 pm Evolution has never seemed crazy to me. Long before I studied it, as a five year old at the zoo I noticed the strong resemblance of apes to people (which should not have been surprising since people are apes). In fact to my five year old's eye some pople had noses that looked like the gorilla's. And the gorilla could get the same expression on his face.
From then on whenever I looked at animals, particularly mammals, I could find the anatomical equivalents we shared. Humans look for patterns and they are easy to find when we compare animals to each other. For me, the only crazy thing is how some people don't understand or see the obvious truth of evolution.

What seems particularly crazy is the idea that each species was created out of nothing, as fully formed adult organisms. From the first time I heard it, also perhaps as a five year old, the creation story in Genesis is what seemed crazy.
I remember being at a zoo many years ago, watching the gorillas, and saying to my wife that there is no way you could convince me that humans are no more closely related to the gorillas than they are to the birds that were flying around us.

Just last year one of my kids and I were at the San Diego zoo and while we were watching the chimps, one of the volunteers there told everyone about how chimps and humans share 98% of their DNA. I could tell from the muttering and grumbling that some in the crowd didn't agree with that. So I couldn't help myself and piped in that there was more to it than that....not only are chimps our closest genetic relatives, but chimps are genetically more similar to us than they are to any other primate. The guide smiled and agreed.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1462
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 337 times
Been thanked: 906 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1120

Post by Jose Fly »

William wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 3:29 pm So - on the surface the similarities between apes and humans is undeniable, but what is also undeniable are the vast differences which make the similarities fundamentally different and therefore quiet the absurd thing to be equating ones self with.
It's not just "they're similar, therefore we're related"; it's very much about the specific types of similarities, namely shared genetic errors.

It's like how telemarketers protect their call lists by randomly inserting fake names and numbers into those lists, so if someone else has a list that has those same fake names and numbers in the same spots, they can prove in court that it was illegally acquired. How else can one explain two lists both having "Jose Fly -- (999) 555-5555 in the same spot?

Genetic errors work the same way, which is why they're used to determine relatedness in courts for things like paternity. There's no reason for two people to have the same errors in the same spots in their genomes, other than having a shared ancestry. The same methods applied on a broader scale unequivocally show that humans share a common ancestry with other primates.

Once one becomes aware of this info, the question then becomes....are you okay with the result/conclusion? As we've seen, quite a few religious folks aren't.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Post Reply