How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1281

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

William wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:27 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #1279]
What is wrong with inferring God to fill some gap when there's nothing else left to choose?
Evidently what is wrong with that, is that the different religious ideas of GOD which attempt to fill the gap are themselves in need of gap-fill.
Nothing wrong with that though. There are physicists that have different ideas about what gravitation is, but gravitation is still a viable concept to explain some things.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1282

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Eloi in post #1267]
By the way, who impregnated the earth to give life? Or do you forget the main detail?
We don't know the mechamism for how life originated on this planet. That is still an open problem, but it has nothing to do with evolution so not sure why you ask it (other than being confused on what evolution is and does).

Evolution does not address the origin of life ... it only requires that it happened by some means. it operates in the exact same way whether life originated with a god creation, or via abiogeneiss, or panspermia, or any other mechanism. So you usually won't see discussion of "who impregnated the earth to give life" in a discussion about evolution ... except by people who mistakenly think that evolution is supposed to explain origin of life (or who assign that characteristic to it for some reason).
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1283

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

DrNoGods wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:37 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #1267]
By the way, who impregnated the earth to give life? Or do you forget the main detail?
We don't know the mechamism for how life originated on this planet. That is still an open problem, but it has nothing to do with evolution so not sure why you ask it (other than being confused on what evolution is and does).

Evolution does not address the origin of life ... it only requires that it happened by some means. it operates in the exact same way whether life originated with a god creation, or via abiogeneiss, or panspermia, or any other mechanism. So you usually won't see discussion of "who impregnated the earth to give life" in a discussion about evolution ... except by people who mistakenly think that evolution is supposed to explain origin of life (or who assign that characteristic to it for some reason).
So what do you think life was like prior to the point at which evolution arose? What differentiates pre-evolution life from post-evolution life?

What were living things like in a world where evolution did not yet occur?
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Fri May 20, 2022 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1284

Post by Jose Fly »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:20 pm Dude, Duplication is what increases the size of the genome. You might want to read your own articles.
Yes, duplication is one of the means by which genomes increase in size, but it's not the only means. Nucleotide insertion is also a means.

Again, you didn't know this?
Ok, Mr. insertion increases the size of the genome.
Your dodge of AiG's documented dishonesty/ignorance is noted.
Are there any ERV's in Lenski's experiment? Was there any duplication in Lenski's experiment? Duplication usually causes serious problems.
You're completely dodging the point. ERV's are viral insertions that increase the size of genomes. Do you deny that?
Earthscienceguy wrote:
Jose Fly wrote:Also, is it your position that no genome has ever increased in size?
It can if it duplicates. But that causes severe problems with the genome.
Do you deny that ERVs increase genome size? Do you deny that nucleotide insertions occur? Do you deny that they increase genome size?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1285

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:21 pm What is wrong with inferring God to fill some gap when there's nothing else left to choose?
Theologically, as Dr. Kenneth Miller put it, you're seeking God in the darkness of our ignorance rather than the light of our knowledge.

Scientifically, it has no explanatory value.

Philosophically, it's the fallacy of argument from ignorance.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1286

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #1285]
So what do you think life was like prior to the point at which evolution arose? What differentiates pre-evolution life from post-evolution life?

What were living things like in a world where evolution did not yet occur?
Why would you think that there ever was such a thing as "pre-evolution" life? Evolution would be active with any living population so as far as I know there is no expectation or concept of "pre-evolution" life.

You once commented that prokaryotes remained prokaryotes for a couple of billion years, but it was pointed out by a poster who had studied that very subject that there was wide diversification (via evolution) within that large classification of single celled living things, as you'd expect. The mix of prokaryotes 4 billion years ago may have looked nothing like the mix of prokaryotes 2 billion years ago, while still remaining prokaryotes.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1287

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:21 pm What is wrong with inferring God to fill some gap when there's nothing else left to choose?
Theologically, as Dr. Kenneth Miller put it, you're seeking God in the darkness of our ignorance rather than the light of our knowledge.
That didn't answer the question but never mind.
Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:48 pm Scientifically, it has no explanatory value.
Nor should it because the material universe cannot be scientifically explained. Do you believe that everything has a scientific explanation, in principle?
Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:48 pm Philosophically, it's the fallacy of argument from ignorance.
Well that's likely because we interpret nature in different ways, so what makes sense to me does not to you.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1288

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

DrNoGods wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:54 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #1285]
So what do you think life was like prior to the point at which evolution arose? What differentiates pre-evolution life from post-evolution life?

What were living things like in a world where evolution did not yet occur?
Why would you think that there ever was such a thing as "pre-evolution" life?
Well the first living thing obviously cannot have evolved, that's what I meant, they did not evolve from ancestors if they were the first examples of life.
DrNoGods wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:54 pm Evolution would be active with any living population so as far as I know there is no expectation or concept of "pre-evolution" life.
How do you know that? Presumably abiogenesis gave rise to something alive yes? do you believe that the first living things arose with the ability to evolve already present? that the ability to evolve did not itself evolve?

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1289

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:06 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:21 pm What is wrong with inferring God to fill some gap when there's nothing else left to choose?
Theologically, as Dr. Kenneth Miller put it, you're seeking God in the darkness of our ignorance rather than the light of our knowledge.
That didn't answer the question but never mind.
Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:48 pm Scientifically, it has no explanatory value.
Nor should it because the material universe cannot be scientifically explained. Do you believe that everything has a scientific explanation, in principle?
Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:48 pm Philosophically, it's the fallacy of argument from ignorance.
Well that's likely because we interpret nature in different ways, so what makes sense to me does not to you.
As the lecture by Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson we discussed earlier showed, there is a long history in science of people throwing up their hands and declaring one thing or another to be unsolvable by science, only to have someone else come along later (sometimes hundreds of years later) and figure it out. Saying "Science can't solve X, it must therefore be the gods" has a pretty poor track record.

And no, I don't believe absolutely everything is explainable by science. We've been over that too.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1290

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:14 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:06 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:21 pm What is wrong with inferring God to fill some gap when there's nothing else left to choose?
Theologically, as Dr. Kenneth Miller put it, you're seeking God in the darkness of our ignorance rather than the light of our knowledge.
That didn't answer the question but never mind.
Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:48 pm Scientifically, it has no explanatory value.
Nor should it because the material universe cannot be scientifically explained. Do you believe that everything has a scientific explanation, in principle?
Jose Fly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:48 pm Philosophically, it's the fallacy of argument from ignorance.
Well that's likely because we interpret nature in different ways, so what makes sense to me does not to you.
As the lecture by Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson we discussed earlier showed, there is a long history in science of people throwing up their hands and declaring one thing or another to be unsolvable by science, only to have someone else come along later (sometimes hundreds of years later) and figure it out. Saying "Science can't solve X, it must therefore be the gods" has a pretty poor track record.

And no, I don't believe absolutely everything is explainable by science. We've been over that too.
That's rather odd, how do you reconcile affirming "I don't believe absolutely everything is explainable by science" while disapproving of "people throwing up their hands and declaring one thing or another to be unsolvable by science"?
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Fri May 20, 2022 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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