How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

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This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1401

Post by Clownboat »

Eloi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:18 pm
brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:40 pm
Eloi wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:04 pm As a side note: evolutionists have to prove not only what they say about animals (which they had never done), but about plants as well...I don't know if they've ever invented a botanical family tree...have they? Just curious. ;)
What alternative to evolution do you propose and, more importantly, what can you present as proof of this alternative? Note that your alternative must account for all of our observations concerning living things on this planet from its beginning.
That is the question that you repeatedly ask, as a cliché, and to which we have repeatedly answered, and you still do not understand anything. The creation, called nature, is the proof that the Creator exists, the laws and order in the entire Universe, the beauty and good taste of the things that we have at our disposal, the existence itself and the awareness of it, etc.

You don't need a laboratory or a team of scientists to realize these realities, you just need common sense ... this is why the Bible says:

1 Cor. 1:19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.
Thought I would copy/paste this in case anyone missed it:
"The creation, called nature, is the proof that the Creator exists,"

And we are done here. :lol:
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1402

Post by Diogenes »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:04 pm As a side note: evolutionists have to prove not only what they say about animals (which they had never done), but about plants as well...I don't know if they've ever invented a botanical family tree...have they? Just curious. ;)
The evidence of plant evolution is as obvious as that for animals.
The evolutionary history of plants is recorded in fossils preserved in lowland or marine sediments. Some fossils preserve the external form of plant parts; others show cellular features; and still others consist of microfossils such as pollen and spores. In rare instances, fossils may even display the ultrastructural or chemical features of the plants they represent. The fossil record reveals a pattern of accelerating rates of evolution coupled with increasing diversity and complexity of biological communities that began with the invasion of land and continued with the progressive colonization of the continents. At present, fossil evidence of land plants dates to the Ordovician Period (about 485.4 million to 443.8 million years ago) of the Paleozoic Era. However, research using “molecular clock” methodology, which uses genetics to estimate how long species have been separated from a common ancestor, suggests that plants started to colonize terrestrial environments around 500 million years ago, about the middle of the Cambrian Period.
https://www.britannica.com/plant/plant/ ... aleobotany

I realize the Encyclopedia Britannica is not held in the same esteem by creationists as the Howdy Doody School of Magic and Religious Ignorance, but it makes interesting reading nonetheless.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1403

Post by William »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1402]

ftfy
I realize the Encyclopedia Britannica is not held in the same esteem by SOME creationists as the Howdy Doody School of Magic and Religious Ignorance, but it makes interesting reading nonetheless.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1404

Post by otseng »

Eloi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:18 pmand you still do not understand anything.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1405

Post by Diogenes »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:38 am Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur.
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This brings back memories. My first cat, I was 11, would lick an ice cream bar. I noticed it looked like a wood rasp had worked on it.
What we forget is how slowly these changes take place. The cat's spiky tongue did not suddenly appear. The changes to the papillae were so gradual and small, no cat likely suffered. At any rate it is a marvelous adaptation.
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2018/11/ ... ues-spiny/
What is interesting, at least to me, is the similarity of cat papillae to humans. Filiform papillae are the most common in human and they are keratinised, like cat's, though obviously not in the same form.
https://www.histology.leeds.ac.uk/oral/tongue.php
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The closer we look the more we see the same forms in various species. To me the structures and tissues we have in common with other species makes evolution obvious. The only veil that disguises this truth is time. We have a hard time picturing, accepting, understanding the concept of gradual, incremental change over millions of years. It is a time frame we do not grasp intuitively. But the result, the common features we share with other species is intuitively grasped.

For me, teaching children that animals are not linked, that each species is individually created, separately in their current form is a kind of child abuse in that this belief superimposes a hopelessly ridiculous belief system that obstructs truth and clouds a child's natural, honest perception.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1406

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #5]
There are not enough trees that evolutionists can imagine that can explain the great diversity of life that exists only in our own garden or backyard. Of course: it gives us an idea of the great capacity for thought that the One who created us gave us in the first place... that imagination has no limits.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1407

Post by Clownboat »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 8:43 am [Replying to Diogenes in post #5]
There are not enough trees that evolutionists can imagine that can explain the great diversity of life that exists only in our own garden or backyard. Of course: it gives us an idea of the great capacity for thought that the One who created us gave us in the first place... that imagination has no limits.
What mechanism do you propose that better explains the animals we see not just now, but also in the fossil record? I would like to compare that mechanism to changes in the genetic material of a population over time.

Thank you.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1408

Post by Eloi »

Clownboat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:31 am
Eloi wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 8:43 am [Replying to Diogenes in post #5]
There are not enough trees that evolutionists can imagine that can explain the great diversity of life that exists only in our own garden or backyard. Of course: it gives us an idea of the great capacity for thought that the One who created us gave us in the first place... that imagination has no limits.
What mechanism do you propose that better explains the animals we see not just now, but also in the fossil record? I would like to compare that mechanism to changes in the genetic material of a population over time.

Thank you.
You invent things based on whatever you based ... We do not invent anything nobody can know, like where are dead people living (they are nowhere, just dead), but if the Bible does not say, who can know?

The Bible says God created plants and animals "according to its kind". Does it sound like any scientific botanical or animal classification? It is not casual; that was written under God's guide about 35 centuries ago.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1409

Post by Clownboat »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:37 am
Clownboat wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:31 am
Eloi wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 8:43 am [Replying to Diogenes in post #5]
There are not enough trees that evolutionists can imagine that can explain the great diversity of life that exists only in our own garden or backyard. Of course: it gives us an idea of the great capacity for thought that the One who created us gave us in the first place... that imagination has no limits.
What mechanism do you propose that better explains the animals we see not just now, but also in the fossil record? I would like to compare that mechanism to changes in the genetic material of a population over time.

Thank you.
You invent things based on whatever you based ... We do not invent anything nobody can know, like where are dead people living (they are nowhere, just dead), but if the Bible does not say, who can know?

The Bible says God created plants and animals "according to its kind". Does it sound like any scientific botanical or animal classification? It is not casual; that was written under God's guide about 35 centuries ago.
What mechanism do you propose that better explains the animals we see not just now, but also in the fossil record? I would like to compare that mechanism to changes in the genetic material of a population over time.

Thank you.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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How Crazy is Creationism? :)

Post #1410

Post by Diogenes »

I wonder if creationists ever ask themselves why God made 3500 different species of mosquitoes on day 5.
But God really loved beetles. He loved beetles so much he made 350,000 different kinds. Beetles took him two days. He made the ones that can fly on day five while he made the mosquitoes. On day 6 he made the rest, the ones that can't fly. :P

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 140810.htm
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