This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.
That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.
Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.
This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.
Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?
I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.
How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1081Might it be the Barber Paradox?
Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1082Yes, why is that? I mean whatever we find anywhere we can always claim evolution by just making up some new wonderful possibility.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:24 pmWhy is that?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:22 pm Wandering eyeballs, really? Maybe so but this is one of the points that makes people doubt evolution and rightly so.
No evidence? no problem, just make up some fancy explanation for why, and proceed as if there was evidence anyway, its a great system.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1083Because first glances and smell tests are worth something. Not as much as intensive study of course, but not nothing.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:24 pmWhy is that?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:22 pm Wandering eyeballs, really? Maybe so but this is one of the points that makes people doubt evolution and rightly so.
Sometimes, things that seem ridiculous are ridiculous. We wouldn't have this way of assessing how something seems if it wasn't marginally more likely to be right than wrong.
And people that don't understand the process actually should trust this first assessment, because it's better than nothing and if they really can't understand the process, their alternative is trusting authority and I don't support anybody trusting anybody else unless they want to.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1084If you think that's how evolutionary biologists go about their work, I guess we'll just add that to the pile of evidence that illustrates how little you know about the subject.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:41 pmYes, why is that? I mean whatever we find anywhere we can always claim evolution by just making up some new wonderful possibility.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:24 pmWhy is that?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:22 pm Wandering eyeballs, really? Maybe so but this is one of the points that makes people doubt evolution and rightly so.
No evidence? no problem, just make up some fancy explanation for why, and proceed as if there was evidence anyway, its a great system.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1085I can see how laypeople would see it that way (and not just with evolutionary biology).Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:42 pm Because first glances and smell tests are worth something. Not as much as intensive study of course, but not nothing.
Or they could just say "I really don't know all that much about it". It's what I do with subjects that I....well....don't know much about.Sometimes, things that seem ridiculous are ridiculous. We wouldn't have this way of assessing how something seems if it wasn't marginally more likely to be right than wrong.
And people that don't understand the process actually should trust this first assessment, because it's better than nothing and if they really can't understand the process, their alternative is trusting authority and I don't support anybody trusting anybody else unless they want to.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1086You didn't notice the sideways mouth?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1087I know, it's all me, I just don't "get it" do I Jose!Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:07 pmIf you think that's how evolutionary biologists go about their work, I guess we'll just add that to the pile of evidence that illustrates how little you know about the subject.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:41 pmYes, why is that? I mean whatever we find anywhere we can always claim evolution by just making up some new wonderful possibility.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:24 pmWhy is that?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:22 pm Wandering eyeballs, really? Maybe so but this is one of the points that makes people doubt evolution and rightly so.
No evidence? no problem, just make up some fancy explanation for why, and proceed as if there was evidence anyway, its a great system.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1088The mouth isn't sideways. It's the eyeball that wandered if that's the fish I assume it is.
Either way it looks like a Picasso. And I don't think that's a compliment.
They can. That's encompassed by my saying they shouldn't just trust people blindly.
But they're also welcome to think otherwise and go on the best understanding they can personally come to.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1089It's both. It has asymmetrical eye placement and its mouth is sideways. Clear sings of evolution from upright swimming to flat.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:18 pmThe mouth isn't sideways. It's the eyeball that wandered if that's the fish I assume it is.
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To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1090Not if you think that's how evolutionary biologists do their jobs.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:18 pmI know, it's all me, I just don't "get it" do I Jose!Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:07 pmIf you think that's how evolutionary biologists go about their work, I guess we'll just add that to the pile of evidence that illustrates how little you know about the subject.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:41 pmYes, why is that? I mean whatever we find anywhere we can always claim evolution by just making up some new wonderful possibility.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:24 pmWhy is that?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:22 pm Wandering eyeballs, really? Maybe so but this is one of the points that makes people doubt evolution and rightly so.
No evidence? no problem, just make up some fancy explanation for why, and proceed as if there was evidence anyway, its a great system.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.