How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1241

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #1239]

You wrote
Yet those who study such things, who have advanced degrees in the relevant fields, found the data compelling for evolution.
That could be because their studies and educational emphasis and so on plays a part in how they interpret things. The fact is this is interpretation of data, some people think it supports evolution and some don't just as some people thing the universe is evidence for God and some don't. Everything is subjective, everything is down to how we choose to interpret stuff.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1242

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #1237]
The math pretty much works that way for any so-called evolved change. Chimp to human, Human to chimp depending on what movie you watch. 1% difference 1% of 3.6E9 nucleotides is 3.6E7 nucleotides. Gives a result of 7.2E16 yrs. Houston we have a problem.
First, humans did not evolve from chimps, we share a common ancestor with them that was neither a chimp or a human. But are you suggesting that the transition from this common ancestor some 6-10 million years ago, to the first Homo sapien, happened within the descendants of just one starting ancestor? What was the starting population of this common ancestor?

This paper comes to a very different conclusion than your 7.2e16 years, via a proper analysis of the problem:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7X20300794

Most studies like this do ... the ape/human common ancestor appears to have lived sometime in the 7-14 million year ago time frame ... not some wild number that is 1e7 older than the universe! I think your mathematical "proof" has too many holes.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1243

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:36 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #1239]

You wrote
Yet those who study such things, who have advanced degrees in the relevant fields, found the data compelling for evolution.
That could be because their studies and educational emphasis and so on plays a part in how they interpret things. The fact is this is interpretation of data, some people think it supports evolution and some don't just as some people thing the universe is evidence for God and some don't. Everything is subjective, everything is down to how we choose to interpret stuff.
And once again you dip your toe into solipsism. Everything is subjective and a matter of interpretation, and apparently all interpretations are equally valid, right?

IOW, we really don't and can't know anything. Solipsism.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1244

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #1242]
Most studies like this do ... the ape/human common ancestor appears to have lived sometime in the 7-14 million year ago time frame ... not some wild number that is 1e7 older than the universe! I think your mathematical "proof" has too many holes.
From your article.
Accounting for the mean ages of the parents at reproduction, the per generation mutation rates are converted into yearly mutation rates, providing an estimate of .4-.5 E-9 per base pair per year in humans ([10,30••], Figure 1). This is in agreement with the estimate based on the direct sequencing of a 45 000-year-old ancient DNA specimen, suggesting similar rates over recent human evolution [34•]. Across primates, however, the reported yearly mutation rates from pedigree studies is extremely variable — almost 10-fold across species — with the lowest rate in humans and highest in lemurs
A 10 fold increase still would not get you even in the ballpark of 7-14 million years. It gets you to 7.2E15 years. You are not within at least 2 orders of magnitude of the age of the universe that is something I guess.

Try again.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1245

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

[Replying to Jose Fly in post #1243]

I don't know what more to tell you, I do not find any of the arguments about the fossil record convincing, that's my position.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1246

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:54 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #1243]

I don't know what more to tell you, I do not find any of the arguments about the fossil record convincing, that's my position.
Again I have to wonder why you're in a debate forum.

But then, this is pretty consistent with the overall trend I've been noticing for a few years now.....creationists really don't even try anymore. As I noted in an earlier thread I created, this is pretty much a dead issue. And your posts certainly reflect that.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1247

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #8]
When someone talks about the people and not about the arguments, for some reason it will be... Most likely, they have nothing to refute, so they divert attention from the subject to the person. Everyone knows the ad-hominen fallacy, it is very common among evolutionists. How could they pretend that they have as much evidence as they constantly say, if they had to actually present it?

As a side note: evolutionists have to prove not only what they say about animals (which they had never done), but about plants as well...I don't know if they've ever invented a botanical family tree...have they? Just curious. ;)

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1248

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Eloi in post #1249]
I don't know if they've ever invented a botanical family tree...have they? Just curious.
Of course they have...

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-p ... _304784080

A quick Google search reveals many such diagrams.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1249

Post by Jose Fly »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:04 pm How could they pretend that they have as much evidence as they constantly say, if they had to actually present it?
Again....an utterly bizarre thing to see from someone who was just presented multiple examples of speciation.

Fascinating to watch.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1250

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #1246]
A 10 fold increase still would not get you even in the ballpark of 7-14 million years. It gets you to 7.2E15 years. You are not within at least 2 orders of magnitude of the age of the universe that is something I guess.
From this same paper:
Image

You seem to be assuming that there was only a single mating pair that started the process and no others in the population and their descendants contributed to the population genetics.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

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