This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.
That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.
Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.
This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.
Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?
I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.
How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1071"He who begins by loving Christianity more than Truth, will proceed by loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in loving himself better than all".EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:11 am [Replying to Clownboat in post #1032]
The Bible cannot be an idol because it is the very words of God. John 1:1 "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." To love the Bible is to love God. Psalm 119 the longest chapter in the Bible is about loving the law of God which is the Bible.It seems you have made an idol out of the Bible. There are some god concepts that frown on such behavior.
- Samuel Taylor Coleridge
When a person makes an idol of the Bible and their own interpretation of it, which they then cling to as if it is themself, they are putting their own narrow view in opposition to the wider principle of love and acceptance that Jesus taught. These folk will become increasingly marginalized. They will fight among themselves as well because what they are really doing is self promotion, each of them seeking to claim to speak for a God.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
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It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1072[Replying to Clownboat in post #1071]
John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth"
Jesus is the word to love the word is to love the truth.
John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth, your word is truth"He who begins by loving Christianity more than Truth, will proceed by loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in loving himself better than all".
- Samuel Taylor Coleridge
John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth"
Jesus is the word to love the word is to love the truth.
Spoken like the true "post-modernist that you are". There is one truth singular, not plural. The Bible has one meaning not many meanings. This is why for centuries theologians argued about the truth contained in the Bible. They argued because they knew that it has one meaning and they wanted to know the Word and that dwelt among us.When a person makes an idol of the Bible and their own interpretation of it, which they then cling to as if it is themself, they are putting their own narrow view in opposition to the wider principle of love and acceptance that Jesus taught. These folk will become increasingly marginalized. They will fight among themselves as well because what they are really doing is self promotion, each of them seeking to claim to speak for a God.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1073And now we're down to dualing bible quotes.
Which reminds me, I need new banjo strings.
Which reminds me, I need new banjo strings.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1074Thanks for an example of clinging to your own interpretatoin of the Bible. Your interpretation is that Jesus is the word. That is not shared by all and for reasons that come from your idol, the Bible:EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:22 pm [Replying to Clownboat in post #1071]
John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth, your word is truth"He who begins by loving Christianity more than Truth, will proceed by loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in loving himself better than all".
- Samuel Taylor Coleridge
John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth"
Jesus is the word to love the word is to love the truth.
Spoken like the true "post-modernist that you are". There is one truth singular, not plural. The Bible has one meaning not many meanings. This is why for centuries theologians argued about the truth contained in the Bible. They argued because they knew that it has one meaning and they wanted to know the Word and that dwelt among us.When a person makes an idol of the Bible and their own interpretation of it, which they then cling to as if it is themself, they are putting their own narrow view in opposition to the wider principle of love and acceptance that Jesus taught. These folk will become increasingly marginalized. They will fight among themselves as well because what they are really doing is self promotion, each of them seeking to claim to speak for a God.
LOGOS was a Greek word used hundreds of years prior to the birth of Jesus by Stoic philosophers to mean ‘the active reason pervading and animating the universe’. The active reason pervading and animating the universe was found specifically defined in Psalms 33:6-9, as the breath of God’s mouth: what He speaks, His words.
Psalms 33:6-9 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
You cling to your perferred interpretation and others will theirs and all will become increasingly marginalized. You will fight among yourselves as well because what you're all really doing is self promotion, each seeking to claim to speak for a God. Trinity concept is another that comes to mind.
- Samuels words ring truer then ever it seems.
Christian denominations around the world have taught that Jesus Christ is the ‘LOGOS’ or the ‘WORD’ in John 1:1 for more than 1700 years. A recently released study by The Fellowship of Apostles (http://www.thefellowshipofapostles.com), a group dedicated to promoting the Bible and what is written therein, claims the Bible proves he is not.
https://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/ ... 256188.htm
Let the show begin! Who can show they speak for a god better than the other!
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1075Who can show they speak for a god better than the other!
Aye...A name I call myself.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1076[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]
This is how crazy evolution can seem:
Of course, who would suggest that this is the result of intelligent design? Maybe if Buster Keaton was the designer. Anything for a laugh.
Tcg
This is how crazy evolution can seem:
Of course, who would suggest that this is the result of intelligent design? Maybe if Buster Keaton was the designer. Anything for a laugh.
Tcg
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1077What's that quote about doctors who treat themselves? Well, whatever it is I think it also applies to those who reference themselves to support claims they themselves make.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1078I wasn't quoting myself, dear Tcg.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1079Frankly, at first glance, it would seem to be the result of neither. For this to be the work of God, God would have to be an abstract artist who doesn't care about symmetry. And for it to be the result of evolution, some lazy fish would have had to have been lying on the ocean floor and getting some benefit from that which outweighed not being able to use their other eye, before, at long last, evolution gave them a way to use both their eyes by making one of those eyeballs slide slowly to the other side.
Wandering eyeballs, really? Maybe so but this is one of the points that makes people doubt evolution and rightly so. We have tons of other examples of evolution proceeding nicely so I can accept (and do accept) that wandering eyeballs are just the odd man out.
I am also open to other options that perhaps proceed in tandem with evolution. I'm not utterly convinced Lamarkian evolution is always false.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1080Why is that?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:22 pm Wandering eyeballs, really? Maybe so but this is one of the points that makes people doubt evolution and rightly so.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.