How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

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This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #21

Post by Sheila D »

[[url=./viewtopic.php?p=1060515#p1060515]Replying to brunumb in post #20[/ur

Doesn't surprise me your opinion on them or your usage of words that are demeaning.

Whether you are a child of God I do not know - because I am I will say may you receive all that is yours to receive.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #22

Post by otseng »

Sheila D wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 7:40 pm Whether you are a child of God I do not know - because I am I will say may you receive all that is yours to receive.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #23

Post by Purple Knight »

Sheila D wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:56 pmwell there are a lot of smart people who don't believe in the theory of evolution
I agree, and furthermore I would expect someone intelligent and rational to have doubt as a first reaction to the theory of evolution at point of first exposure, unless that point of first exposure was being taught it was true by a trusted source.

That's the point of the thread.

I sometimes walk my understanding back to point of first exposure and consider how I would react if I was only just now hearing of this thing and I didn't have an extreme sense of trust for the source.

Incredulity. If nobody had told me about evolution before, and if I wasn't an animal breeder, I probably wouldn't believe it. It boils down to something that requires a large amount of assumption, which generally turns me straight to "show me" - show it to me. I don't believe some expert, especially if experts disagree, and I don't give a fart which expert is in the majority. Show me. Show. me. it. happen. That's how I react if I walk back my understanding and pretend I'm at the point of first exposure.

I don't share the opinion that studying doesn't always lead to learning. Perhaps it's a matter of not learning the thing someone thinks you should, in other words learning the same thing they did, but so be it.

If anything, legitimate and earnest studiousness will divide people more, because earnest people will find more things that disagree with their worldview and some of them will change it. If six atheists went in, had all the knowledge in the world poured into their heads, and three Buddhists a Christian and a Taoist and a Satanist came out, I would laugh, but I wouldn't be shocked.

Cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues. Just saying.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #24

Post by brunumb »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:49 pm Incredulity. If nobody had told me about evolution before, and if I wasn't an animal breeder, I probably wouldn't believe it. It boils down to something that requires a large amount of assumption, which generally turns me straight to "show me" - show it to me.
On the other hand, I never had any problem with the theory of evolution. "Show me" was never a requirement because I understood from the beginning that it involved a time frame that didn't allow for that. The basic principle seemed very straight forward to me. What I find incredulous is that there are those that cannot, or that is probably will not, see how evolution works.
Purple Knight wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:49 pm I don't share the opinion that studying doesn't always lead to learning. Perhaps it's a matter of not learning the thing someone thinks you should, in other words learning the same thing they did, but so be it.
I don't think you are seeing it quite as I proposed it in my statement. If you are studying evolution and then regurgitate something that is not taught as evolution, then what you have learnt is wrong. If someone wishes to criticise the theory then they should criticise precisely what that theory states. otherwise they are doing nothing more than attacking a straw man version.
Purple Knight wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:49 pm Cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues. Just saying.
God works in mysterious ways. ;)
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #25

Post by Purple Knight »

brunumb wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:07 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:49 pm Incredulity. If nobody had told me about evolution before, and if I wasn't an animal breeder, I probably wouldn't believe it. It boils down to something that requires a large amount of assumption, which generally turns me straight to "show me" - show it to me.
On the other hand, I never had any problem with the theory of evolution. "Show me" was never a requirement because I understood from the beginning that it involved a time frame that didn't allow for that. The basic principle seemed very straight forward to me. What I find incredulous is that there are those that cannot, or that is probably will not, see how evolution works.
Seeing how it works isn't what makes me incredulous if I remove my experience breeding animals and walk my understanding back to point of first exposure. It should work. I understand there is no flaw in the construction. Organisms better suited to survive really should survive better. I would simply hesitate to believe it described reality without direct evidence, and this leaves me at a point of incredulity, because of that very timeframe that's too long for a human to observe.

I simply have an inherent scepticism of even working constructions that don't allow me to directly observe or test their truth. The idea that God exists and controls everything is another working construction, with much less direct verifiability, and I therefore distrust it even more. I don't want to be told, this miracle, such as Jesus rising from the dead, is possible but you won't be allowed to see it. I don't care that it's constructed in such a way as to explain why I can't see it. Yes I understand that only Jesus because only he is the Son of God, and he's not here right now. I understand it's a working, logical construction capable of explaining itself in terms of its own rules. I still want to see it. If I really can't see it, it might still be true, but I still have every reason to distrust.
brunumb wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:07 pmI don't think you are seeing it quite as I proposed it in my statement. If you are studying evolution and then regurgitate something that is not taught as evolution, then what you have learnt is wrong.
I disagree, for the very reason that many Christians become atheists when they actually read the material. I became very anti-libertarian when I learned and read all there was to read about Libertarianism, Anarcho-capitalism, and the Non-Aggression Principle, not limited to but including everything on the Mises Institute. Blackmail is great by the way. Should be legal. Here are all the reasons why. It is very, very possible to reject something precisely because you do study it earnestly.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #26

Post by brunumb »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:05 pm It is very, very possible to reject something precisely because you do study it earnestly.
Rejecting something is one thing, but discrediting it because you have a misunderstanding based on faulty learning is not the same thing.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #27

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]
This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering.
To me, that would be an assumption that (in this case) a feline had large, detrimental things growing on its tongue. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. Maybe they were smaller 'bumps' that grew to a state where they're no longer needed to grow longer? Or maybe some had large ones, some small ones and others none?
Basically, I don't see any reason to think evolution goes to the extreme then dials back in as aspects.
Almost anything is possible in the unknown.
As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.
Evolution isn't full proof :dizzy: It seems to be, in a sense, an experiment testing what it can and can't get away with. Sometimes it goes too far. Other times not far enough. And sometimes, it gets it right - at least for the interim.
The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.
Sure seems possible - at least for some plants and animals. Makes me wonder how 'crazy' it gets on other planets and systems!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #28

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

Well I'd argue that it isn't crazy, it does not seem crazy at all, Darwin was a good scientist, his reasoning was intelligent and his conclusions very reasonable reflecting another step in the reliance on reductionism to explain what we observe.

But that was 160 years ago, since then the questions and problems that are raised by the theory have grown and some of the fundamental ones have not only remained but become even more problematic.

One of the reasons so many educated people accept evolution is because it is not - overall - unreasonable, most who accept evolution have never investigated the problems and that's probably because it appears (or is portrayed) as almost self-evident.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #29

Post by Purple Knight »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:22 amOne of the reasons so many educated people accept evolution is because it is not - overall - unreasonable, most who accept evolution have never investigated the problems and that's probably because it appears (or is portrayed) as almost self-evident.
Exactly. Yes. Indubitably.

This is precisely what I was going for.

I was at this point you describe of having never personally investigated evolution at all and having accepted it anyway.

Then I became an animal breeder and then I actually accepted it.

Having had this experience led me to think, oh, those poor people I thought were stupid before... I had really no basis whatsoever to think that. And I still don't. They're largely not animal breeders; they don't have that confirming experience either. The difference must therefore be one of upbringing. Teacher tells me this, pastor tells him that, we each trust the figure in question, and there we have our basis of contention. Perhaps this is why there's such conflict on this issue - why we talk past one another. If I could elucidate this, perhaps there can be just a bit more understanding.

I'm so bursting-full of doubt that even when I confirm I was right, I can see how I was actually wrong.

Even now I'm wondering, how much are we all wrong about, and I've never even thought of it, because of some supposed truth so accepted that the pastor and the teacher tell the same thing and nobody thinks twice about it because everybody agrees? It's a bit like wondering, if a crime befalls someone out in the forest, or deep in the countryside, and no one has the wherewithal to understand it as a crime, much less report it, does it make an injustice?

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #30

Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:22 am But that was 160 years ago, since then the questions and problems that are raised by the theory have grown and some of the fundamental ones have not only remained but become even more problematic.
Perhaps you could offer some support for that claim as it is generally accepted that the theory has strengthened over time with advances in scientific techniques.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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