This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.
That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.
Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.
This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.
Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?
I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.
How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1341I already explained....because it is not a question that is scientifically testable. Pay attention please.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 6:09 pm How did you establish that "Which one of these is art" has no scientific answer rather than simply does not yet have a scientific answer?
This isn't difficult (although you seem to want to make it so). The questions Dr. Tyson referenced were all scientifically solvable questions, the issue was that no one at the time could solve them. "Is that art" is fundamentally not a scientifically solvable question.How do you know that the question "Which one of these is art" might not one day have a scientific answer, that someone might figure it out?
To take the position you do you must be able to take any question and place into one of these categories:
1. The question does not yet have a scientific explanation. (Tyson's lecture thesis)
2. The question cannot have a scientific explanation. (God of the gaps)
You have to be able to do that to assert "I don't believe absolutely everything is explainable by science" which you did assert earlier.
What is it about a question that enables you to categorize it into one of the two above categories?
After all you seem extremely confident that "How did the material universe come to exist" is not a question that cannot eventually be answered scientifically, so how did you reach that conclusion?
And honestly, as far as debate topics go, I have almost zero interest in this. If you want to declare the origins of the universe to be outside the realm of science, be my guest. I'm content to let the people who specialize in those areas decide for themselves what they can and can't do.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1342When I first read that, I laughed so hard I darn near spit out my morning tea!Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 11:03 am We were discussing biochemistry, the picture you posted representing a phospholipid is biochemistry, organic chemistry not biology.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1343Consider the question "How did the universe come to exist?".Jose Fly wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 11:59 amI already explained....because it is not a question that is scientifically testable. Pay attention please.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 6:09 pm How did you establish that "Which one of these is art" has no scientific answer rather than simply does not yet have a scientific answer?
This isn't difficult (although you seem to want to make it so). The questions Dr. Tyson referenced were all scientifically solvable questions, the issue was that no one at the time could solve them. "Is that art" is fundamentally not a scientifically solvable question.How do you know that the question "Which one of these is art" might not one day have a scientific answer, that someone might figure it out?
To take the position you do you must be able to take any question and place into one of these categories:
1. The question does not yet have a scientific explanation. (Tyson's lecture thesis)
2. The question cannot have a scientific explanation. (God of the gaps)
You have to be able to do that to assert "I don't believe absolutely everything is explainable by science" which you did assert earlier.
What is it about a question that enables you to categorize it into one of the two above categories?
After all you seem extremely confident that "How did the material universe come to exist" is not a question that cannot eventually be answered scientifically, so how did you reach that conclusion?
And honestly, as far as debate topics go, I have almost zero interest in this. If you want to declare the origins of the universe to be outside the realm of science, be my guest. I'm content to let the people who specialize in those areas decide for themselves what they can and can't do.
Show me how you decide whether that is or is not "answerable by science", that it is a "scientifically solvable question".
I asked you about the art example you gave and how you decide whether it is or is not a "scientifically solvable question" you never answered, all you did is repeat the assertion "'Is that art' is fundamentally not a scientifically solvable question."
You might be right for all I know, the point of the question is what process EXACTLY do you follow to reach your conclusion? How do you know it is not scientifically solvable?
I'm simply asking you to share the reasoning that you use, that's all, the logic you follow.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1344Yes, your argument seems to be little more than "James Tour is skeptical, so there". The proper rebuttal to that is "So what?"Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 9:24 am I'm saying that what is known about the natural world shows that structures as complex as cells cannot spontaneously form over time. This is the thrust of Tour's lectures.
As before, I'm content to let the people who specialize in, and work on these issues figure out what they can and can't do themselves. I mean, it's not like they're going to say "Well James Tour is skeptical of our work, so let's just shut down the labs and go find something else to do".
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1345Biochemistry : Phospholipids.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:06 pmWhen I first read that, I laughed so hard I darn near spit out my morning tea!Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 11:03 am We were discussing biochemistry, the picture you posted representing a phospholipid is biochemistry, organic chemistry not biology.
The site covers example biochemistry questions related to phospholipids, in the domain: Biochemistry Help » Macromolecule Structures and Functions » Lipid Structures and Functions » Lipid Classifications » Phospholipids.
See how many you can answer.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1346I don't. I'm not a cosmologist, I have no education or experience in that area, so again....I'm content to let the people who specialize in that decide for themselves what they can and can't do.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:11 pm Consider the question "How did the universe come to exist?".
Show me how you decide whether that is or is not "answerable by science", that it is a "scientifically solvable question".
Are you?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1347Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:18 pmBiochemistry : Phospholipids.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:06 pmWhen I first read that, I laughed so hard I darn near spit out my morning tea!Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 11:03 am We were discussing biochemistry, the picture you posted representing a phospholipid is biochemistry, organic chemistry not biology.
The site covers example biochemistry questions related to phospholipids, in the domain: Biochemistry Help » Macromolecule Structures and Functions » Lipid Structures and Functions » Lipid Classifications » Phospholipids.
See how many you can answer.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1348So you don't have a process to decide if the question is scientifically solvable, very well, this make things much clearer to me now.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:21 pmI don't. I'm not a cosmologist, I have no education or experience in that area, so again....I'm content to let the people who specialize in that decide for themselves what they can and can't do.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:11 pm Consider the question "How did the universe come to exist?".
Show me how you decide whether that is or is not "answerable by science", that it is a "scientifically solvable question".
Are you?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1349Yes I do, I already explained. Pay attention.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:24 pmSo you don't have a process to decide if the question is scientifically solvable, very well, this make things much clearer to me now.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:21 pmI don't. I'm not a cosmologist, I have no education or experience in that area, so again....I'm content to let the people who specialize in that decide for themselves what they can and can't do.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:11 pm Consider the question "How did the universe come to exist?".
Show me how you decide whether that is or is not "answerable by science", that it is a "scientifically solvable question".
Are you?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1350Forgive me but it seems you have made two contradictory statements.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:29 pmYes I do, I already explained. Pay attention.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:24 pmSo you don't have a process to decide if the question is scientifically solvable, very well, this make things much clearer to me now.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:21 pmI don't. I'm not a cosmologist, I have no education or experience in that area, so again....I'm content to let the people who specialize in that decide for themselves what they can and can't do.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:11 pm Consider the question "How did the universe come to exist?".
Show me how you decide whether that is or is not "answerable by science", that it is a "scientifically solvable question".
Are you?
I asked you to show me how you decide and you replied:
then I understood that you don't have a process to decide if the question is scientifically solvable and then you replied:I don't. I'm not a cosmologist, I have no education or experience in that area, so again....I'm content to let the people who specialize in that decide for themselves what they can and can't do.
This is a contradiction.Yes I do, I already explained. Pay attention.