How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1181

Post by Jose Fly »

Eloi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:45 pm if there is so "massive evidence" of that, why there are so many scientists who are still not convinced of it?
Because it contradicts their religious beliefs.
Some evolutionists want us to believe that evolution is proven without a doubt. Obviously it isn't.
The moon is made of cheese.

Wait....you mean me merely saying that doesn't automatically mean the moon is made of cheese? My mere say-so isn't sufficient?

Think about it.
There are even non-believers theorists (according to what I have read somewhere) who say that in view of the unresolved questions of the theory, it is much more likely that living beings on earth have come from space in the first place ... because on earth there is not enough undisputtable proof of their real origin.
The origin of the first life is indeed a mystery. But regardless of how those first lifeforms came to be, evolutionary theory still explains life's subsequent history and behavior.

Just as chemists didn't have to fully explain where all the elements came from before they could accurately describe how they behave, biologists don't have to fully explain where the first life forms came from before they can accurately describe how organisms behave.

Evolution occurs, right before our eyes, all the time. We both fight against it (antibiotic resistance) and exploit it (domestication). It's so trivially easy to demonstrate that it's a common lab experiment in BIO 100 courses.

You may as well claim that erosion doesn't happen.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1182

Post by Eloi »

Personal disqualifications are not an argument for anything.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1183

Post by Miles »

Eloi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:05 pm Personal disqualifications are not an argument for anything.
Don't know whom you're talking to here, but a personal disqualification could well be an argument as to why someone has not addressed an issue: they believe they're unqualified to do so.


.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1184

Post by JoeyKnothead »

William wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:27 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:02 pm
William wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:01 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #1125]
My points were to agree with what the eye tells us [humans and apes look similar] but also to show that what the eye sees is only flesh and bone, and to peel those away from what makes a personality, one is left with something distinctly non-human or ape-like.
How so?
Image
And.....?
GM: Who Knows Who?
The Limitations
When feeling lost
Have A Look At The Map
Adjusted Reality
Loving-kindness
The Jellyfish Image

William: The Jellyfish image is like the image of the nervous system. The nervous system is near the heart of what makes a human, a "person" whereas taxonomy is simply interested in categorizing the human being in relation to the external flesh and bone material which encases the nervous system.

The flesh and bone material does influence a persons idea of who they are, but without the nervous system, the person would not exist as a personality...so taxonomy can only offer an incomplete picture - surface scratching rather than digging deeper into what is beneath the surface. That is why the expression "Humans are Apes" is incomplete - gives an incomplete picture and defines according to that incompleteness.

In appearance, humans are more related to what Jellyfish look like - re the nervous system...once the flesh and bone are removed to reveal said system.

Consciousness goes even deeper than the nervous system, and cannot easily be pictured. I would say that consciousness does not reside only with the brain but throughout the nervous system...mostly operating without the personality being conscious of said operations, and in relation to subconscious operations [re psychology/ the human mind] the personality can connect and interact with said subconscious activity, thereby learning from that vast resource...
{SOURCE}
I hear ya friend.

You tend to look beyond the 'simple', though accurate definition of what it is to be an ape.

Instead, you invoke a fuller definition, where humans can be considered much more'n just human apes. I can't fuss with that.

There's some pride to be had knowing we humans have abilities unique and wonderful. If sometimes frightful.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1185

Post by The Barbarian »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:40 pm Well, it is my position. The arguments for the fossil record being evidence of a continuous process don't convince me and never have. Not being convinced by someone's argument is not to be interpreted as ignoring that argument either.
It's important to note that creationists familiar with the fossil record admit that it is very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Let's take whales, for example, specifically, what about the transitional features of these whales do you find unconvincing? If you also knew that the genetic data is precisely what it would be if these whales do form a series of transitionals, would that make a difference?

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1186

Post by The Barbarian »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:59 pm
The origin of the first life is indeed a mystery. But regardless of how those first lifeforms came to be, evolutionary theory still explains life's subsequent history and behavior.

Just as chemists didn't have to fully explain where all the elements came from before they could accurately describe how they behave, biologists don't have to fully explain where the first life forms came from before they can accurately describe how organisms behave.

Evolution occurs, right before our eyes, all the time. We both fight against it (antibiotic resistance) and exploit it (domestication). It's so trivially easy to demonstrate that it's a common lab experiment in BIO 100 courses.

You may as well claim that erosion doesn't happen.
Precisely. Well said.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1187

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:53 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:40 pm Well, it is my position. The arguments for the fossil record being evidence of a continuous process don't convince me and never have.
Congratulations.
Not being convinced by someone's argument is not to be interpreted as ignoring that argument either.
Again, the issue isn't whether you ignored people's arguments, it's that you repeatedly ignored data that contradicts your claims (and then you wait a bit and restate the same claims, acting as if no such data had ever been provided).

It's basically....

Creationist: "X doesn't exist"

JF: Here is an example of X.

Creationist: <ignores the data>

....2 months later....

Creationist: "X doesn't exist and those evolutionists refuse to admit it!"
To be fair, he got sent to the principals office.

Two months ain't near the problem as an inability to understand the data.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1188

Post by The Barbarian »

William wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:24 pm You are missing the point though...the argument presented by those who point out that humans and apes look similar and are therefore related, has only been [up until now] concerned with the surface material.
Not the argument used by scientists. It's not "look similar"; that is confusing homology with analogy. Pandas and some other animals have opposable "thumbs", but they are derived from different tissues and/or are structurally different. The are analogous structures. Human and other ape hands are the same structures, from the same tissues. They are homologous.
When it gets to the nervous system, we have a different sight to see.
Well, no. Thomas Huxley, very early on, won a debate with Owens by showing that there was no structure in an ape's brain that did not have a counterpart in human brains. Unlike those of non-primates, human and chimp brains are homologous.
My argument isn't concerned even with the similarities between ape nervous systems as in 'the shape of' said systems.
Back then, we didn't have much information on function of brain structures, but we do now. So it turns out (for example) that Broca's area (language) is found to have similar functions in both humans and chimps, although little or no lateralization has taken place in chimps, which is what you'd see in a transitional stage. They are homologous, and explain why chimps and gorillas have rudimentary language capabilities. We don't see these in other primates or other mammals.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2820707/
In appearance, humans are more related to what Jellyfish look like - re the nervous system...once the flesh and bone are removed to reveal said system.
Um....no, not at all.
Therein is why you are stuck in your belief that humans are apes.
He's very correct. You won't see anything remotely like a human nervous system in jellyfish. We see cnidarians with a "nerve net", no brain, and very simple networks:
Image
By observing the similarity of structure. It is undeniably "Jellyfish looking'.
No. A vertebrate nervous system is treelike, with branches off a central system. The cnidarian nervous system is an entirely different form, a network.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1189

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Eloi in post #1180]
And that is the point I asked before: if there is so "massive evidence" of that, why there are so many scientists who are still not convinced of it?
There are a fair number of people who believe the Earth is flat despite the overwhelming evidence that it is an (slightly) oblate spheroid. Should we take them seriously just because there are a lot of them? How many scientists accept evolutionary theory vs. those that don't? The huge majority do, because of the evidence that does support it.
Some evolutionists want us to believe that evolution is proven without a doubt. Obviously it isn't.
Of course it is in the general sense. We can and do observe it happening. Why do you think the coronavirus is changing its genetic makeup constantly? How is that happening in your view? Or is your only issue with ape-to-human evolution because it conflicts with at religious belief that humans are "special" creations? Do you accept that amphibians evolved from fish?
There are even non-believers theorists (according to what I have read somewhere) who say that in view of the unresolved questions of the theory, it is much more likely that living beings on earth have come from space in the first place ... because on earth there is not enough undisputtable proof of their real origin.
Again, how many of these people are there? "According to what I have read somewhere" is not a very supportive argument. I've read that people are convinced that they were abucted by aliens and go on to describe the experience in detail. Does that mean they are credible and should be believed? Pointing out that there are a few skeptics when it comes to evolution in no way proves the theory is wrong.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1190

Post by Eloi »

Since when are viruses animal species? :shock:
Learning machines also evolve :D

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