How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

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This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #291

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

brunumb wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:48 am Something to watch instead of read for a change of pace. O:)
Scientist Reacts to "Fossil Record Debunked"
Here's a better video:

Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #292

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Watching from here is particularly noteworthy:



The person speaking at the start of that clip is Prof. Simon Morris, also the 24 Hour Clock analogy is striking, most atheists I've discussed this with had no idea that the emergence of the Cambrian animals was as relatively rapid as the evidence shows.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #293

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

I'm two minutes into the video hosted by Mr. Valkai and he is still talking about himself...but I'll press on...

OK I'm at 4:23 and Valkai has just criticized the other video yet - at this point in time - that video has done nothing more than quote Darwin and states that they are quoting Darwin.

They even include that Darwin attributed his problem to the "extreme imperfection of the geological record" they included that part in their quote.

Valkai's complaints are:

1. The citation is inaccurate (yet it is only partly wrong, it does appear in Chapter 10 in later editions) - but, really?
2. The "entire chapter" is about the imperfections in the geological record - yes and so? the quotation is 100% accurate, it is a quotation, quotations are by definition fragmentary.
3. Valkai says (with much hand waving) "he wasn't admitting that the fossil record debunks the idea of evolution here" and so far as I can see, merely quoting Darwin does not equate to that, he's setup a strawman.
4. Valkai says (3:46) "He was being academically honest" yet nobody said Darwin was being dishonest, this is rhetoric.
5. Valkai says (4:10) "The last sentence here is 'the explanation lies as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record'" yet the video he is critiquing already told us that (at 3:09), they told us that Darwin wrote that.

Sorry this is just silly, hand waving, theatrics, he may have a good case to make, the creators of the video he's critiquing may be bozos, I don't know, but Vakai is overly theatrical, dramatic, rehtorical and I don't find him remotely engaging or thought provoking.

His claim to be some kind of science educator is not something I can substantiate either, everything I see is narcissism, he might appeal to goofy teenagers but not to Sherlock Holmes.

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PS: Don't forget to buy a T-shirt brunumb.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #294

Post by Purple Knight »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:25 pmmost atheists I've discussed this with had no idea that the emergence of the Cambrian animals was as relatively rapid as the evidence shows.
I do. The Cambrian Explosion as it's called, is of particular interest to me, despite the fact that nothing in it was as adorable and cuddly as a T-Rex or mosasaurus yet. No fantasies of nuzzling anything in the Cambrian Period, sadly.



And yes, I'm well aware that the entire time people are talking about it, they presume evolution. It's still cool.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #295

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:53 pmSorry this is just silly, hand waving, theatrics, he may have a good case to make, the creators of the video he's critiquing may be bozos, I don't know, but Vakai is overly theatrical, dramatic, rehtorical and I don't find him remotely engaging or thought provoking.

His claim to be some kind of science educator is not something I can substantiate either, everything I see is narcissism, he might appeal to goofy teenagers but not to Sherlock Holmes.
From the thread "Absurdity of the universe without a creator:"
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:03 amPlease also share with us what you regard as my "arguments against science" that is a fabrication, I have not argued "against science" I have argued against you and your apparent lack of understanding, and you seem to be intentionally mischaracterizing things for the purpose of rhetoric, perhaps that's all you have left?

I've been attacking your arguments, attacking your reasoning, attacking you claims, you are not science, attacking your arguments is not attacking science, you want to imply that of course because you are all out of steam, on the ropes.

I have stated and argued my case, your misunderstandings and confused assessment of it is your concern, further debate on this between us will likely be fruitless until you reach a point of admitting error.
Your latest responses in both threads are such on-point and focused examples of projection that I'm having a hard time imagining that they weren't intended to be. Are you engaging in some kind of performance art?
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #296

Post by Purple Knight »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #295]

To me it seems the result of each side considering that the other is reasonably likely to be dishonest.

And it does seem fair to me to analyse what each dishonesty would gain.

Someone who really knows there is a god but lies and says there isn't... gains what exactly? Other people go to Hell? If there's an afterlife and it's fair the liar certainly goes to Hell too (for blasphemy, I imagine) so, what? He wants company? He imagines that Hell is empty of everyone but himself? (I admit I often think of this, but as no torture. No good people to constantly chastise me seems like a relief.)

Someone who knows there is no god and lies to say there is gains power for his religion. Historically this has meant a lot. I think this is a much more measurable and real gain than someone who can really only be acting out of spite.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #297

Post by William »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #296]
To me it seems the result of each side considering that the other is reasonably likely to be dishonest.
Indeed - I mentioned this just today in post#83

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #80]
It would only be a fallacy if there is some objective standard we can appeal to. There is no such standard for language, word usage changes with how we use them.
Re Ethical Progress...

Should it be that we assign truthfulness as the objective standard when using sounds and symbols to convey with, in order to win over the hearts of others through the settling of truth - and all things unsettled take the deserved second place to that objective.

?
The objective standard = 205
We oppose deception
Unconditional Love
The Same Information


The deserved second place = 212
The Confusion of War

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #298

Post by Purple Knight »

William wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:18 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #296]
To me it seems the result of each side considering that the other is reasonably likely to be dishonest.
Indeed - I mentioned this just today in post#83
I don't think there's anyone on this forum we should generally make that assumption about, perhaps save one annoying poster who doesn't want to discuss things, and answers questions as to his own belief system with non-answers that attempt to make people look foolish for asking the question. And he's not even participated in this thread to my knowledge. I upvoted one of your replies to him where I could see he was trolling you.

The point is, it's obvious, very obvious, when someone is a troll. Nobody is going to make gains from dishonesty on this forum. And thus I think it benefits us to be more honest and open with each other... for the most part.

Some people do try to make others look foolish (and this is generally my side, I admit) but they do at least believe their beliefs. Except for that one person, nobody's just trolling.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #299

Post by William »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:34 pm
William wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:18 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #296]
To me it seems the result of each side considering that the other is reasonably likely to be dishonest.
Indeed - I mentioned this just today in post#83
I don't think there's anyone on this forum we should generally make that assumption about, perhaps save one annoying poster who doesn't want to discuss things, and answers questions as to his own belief system with non-answers that attempt to make people look foolish for asking the question. And he's not even participated in this thread to my knowledge. I upvoted one of your replies to him where I could see he was trolling you.

The point is, it's obvious, very obvious, when someone is a troll. Nobody is going to make gains from dishonesty on this forum. And thus I think it benefits us to be more honest and open with each other... for the most part.

Some people do try to make others look foolish (and this is generally my side, I admit) but they do at least believe their beliefs. Except for that one person, nobody's just trolling.
Trolling?

What trolling?

:D

:shock:

In fishy terms, it is the action of spreading one's net to ensure one catches what one is looking for, even that there is a task involved sorting out the whole catch...and throwing most of it back.

I am perplexed at who this one you say is trolling is, and it would be helpful if you would PM that info to me, so I can get a better grasp of what you are saying...

We can still remain honest, even that PM is a hidden thing...in that we are not hereabouts to name and shame but simply want to help the other recognize an issue which is frowned upon when discussing publicly to the extent of naming names...

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #300

Post by Purple Knight »

William wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:47 pmI am perplexed at who this one you say is trolling is, and it would be helpful if you would PM that info to me, so I can get a better grasp of what you are saying...
Done. And you're going to read it and go, "Ooooooh."

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