How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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Re: How Crazy is Creationism? :)

Post #1411

Post by Eloi »

Diogenes wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:57 pm I wonder if creationists ever ask themselves why God made 3500 different species of mosquitoes on day 5.
But God really loved beetles. He loved beetles so much he made 350,000 different kinds. Beetles took him two days. He made the ones that can fly on day five while he made the mosquitoes. On day 6 he made the rest, the ones that can't fly. :P

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 140810.htm
That is easy to answer ... You just have to ask yourself the question, but make chance responsible for the appearance of those insects instead of the Creator. You'll probably be surprised at how silly your question is.

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Re: How Crazy is Creationism? :)

Post #1412

Post by Jose Fly »

Diogenes wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:57 pm I wonder if creationists ever ask themselves why God made 3500 different species of mosquitoes on day 5.
But God really loved beetles. He loved beetles so much he made 350,000 different kinds. Beetles took him two days. He made the ones that can fly on day five while he made the mosquitoes. On day 6 he made the rest, the ones that can't fly. :P

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 140810.htm
As J.B.S Haldane quipped, if a god created all beings on earth, then it has an inordinate fondness for beetles. :P
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Re: How Crazy is Creationism? :)

Post #1413

Post by Jose Fly »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:04 pm You just have to ask yourself the question, but make chance responsible for the appearance of those insects instead of the Creator. You'll probably be surprised at how silly your question is.
I know you've clearly stated that you will always side with Biblical creation no matter what, but I think you can at least try to understand our side, right?

When we look around now, we see that new species are always produced by the process of evolution. So when we wonder how species (e.g. beetles) came about in the past, it's reasonable to conclude that they also did so via evolution. It's no different than geologists concluding that the ash layer they found was produced by a volcano, because they see volcanoes producing the same kind of ash layers today.

I know you don't agree with that, but I hope you can at least understand it.
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Re: How Crazy is Creationism? :)

Post #1414

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to Jose Fly in post #2]
I never said that, but something diferent, so don't straw...

Also, I said I wouldn't talk to you anymore, so don't keep insisting. I even dislike your avatar, pfff

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Re: How Crazy is Creationism? :)

Post #1415

Post by Jose Fly »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:11 pm I never said that, but something diferent, so don't straw...
Yeah, you kinda did.

"For Jehovah's Witnesses, at least, what you say is true: when a biblical story is well understood (verified, translated and interpreted correctly) there is no valid reason that can discredit it. We will always try to explain why it does not coincide with something that other people believe, because we consider the Scriptures to be totally true"

And again to be clear, I appreciate your openness and honesty.
Also, I said I wouldn't talk to you anymore, so don't keep insisting.
Why?
I even dislike your avatar, pfff
FYI, it's a joke. But I also get the feeling that you and I have interacted before in a different forum. Is that true?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1416

Post by Eloi »

This I said:
Eloi wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:28 am [Replying to DrNoGods in post #389]
That comment was not for you, but for another believer like me. You seem to think that we Christians can't even mention the Bible in this subforum, and you're wrong. That it does not serve you as evidence does not mean that we will not mention it.

The truth is that when we talk about scientific matters, Jehovah's Witnesses usually use a lot of scientific literature that supports our arguments, even though the Bible is our base source of knowledge. The Bible is not a science book, and we have never said such a thing. If you visit this brochure of ours about the origin of life (2010) https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/lf , you will see that we quote a lot of up-to-date scientific information ... In fact, from time to time we update our information; that is how we are educated by our Governing Body, so such an accusation that we only use the Bible is false.

... and this:
Eloi wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:57 am Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the biblical account of creation. We believe that the creative days did not last only 24 hours each, but were 6 stages that may have lasted thousands of years each, because the word "day" in Hebrew can mean "age".

The Bible specifies that when God created each animal, he made it "according to its kind," and that implies that although there may be adaptive changes in species, no species becomes another over time. The facts show that this is the reality.

As for the entire Universe, the Bible does not say when it was created. It only says that when the earth began to be transformed there were already other celestial bodies as well as other types of living spirit beings that rejoiced in this type of creation on the planet. Creative days only talk about the time the planet was transformed and life placed on it, not about the origin of the entire universe.

So we do not have to deny what science discovers about the time of existence of the entire Universe. We cannot be dogmatic about what the Bible does not reveal, nor do we have to believe everything science says either as if everything they say were absolute truth, because they tend to change over time, and there are usually contemporary theories that are completely contradictory. Scientists themselves often do not agree with each other.

Gossips can't be deaf, psss.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1417

Post by The Barbarian »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:20 pm The Bible specifies that when God created each animal, he made it "according to its kind," and that implies that although there may be adaptive changes in species, no species becomes another over time. The facts show that this is the reality.
No. Observed speciations are a fact. Even most creationists now admit that much. They just want to limit how far God can go in making new species by evolution.

Speciation is how God makes organisms according to their kind. Creationists are O.K. with him doing it; they just don't approve of Him using evolution to do it.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1418

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #2]
As I said: Not because they want to classify a blue cat as another species, it will stop being just another cat.

You can call whatever you want to whatever ... that won't change a thing. Naming things does not change their nature.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1419

Post by The Barbarian »

Eloi wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:47 pm [Replying to The Barbarian in post #2]
As I said: Not because they want to classify a blue cat as another species, it will stop being just another cat.
Reproductive isolation is what makes it a different species. So long as the two populations interbreed in nature, they are one species. If they don't then they are two species. And yes, evolution means that we should have all sorts of intermediate cases, half-species, quarter-species, etc. As Darwin pointed out. If creationism were true, we wouldn't see any of that.
You can call whatever you want to whatever ...
It comes down to reproductive isolation. This is why clines and ring species are so interesting. The extinction of an intermediate population can retroactively change mircroevolution to macroevolution. Would you like to see how?

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1420

Post by Eloi »

How funny... There was no one in the forum, and suddenly there are three forumers answering in my topic. Were you waiting for me? You're gonna miss me when I'm gone. ... LOL.

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