This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.
That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.
Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.
This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.
Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?
I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.
How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1101Well if we're honest with ourselves we have to note that evolution denial/creationism is primarily a conservative evangelical Christian phenomenon, and that group doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to being conned. Their history with faith healers and televangelists comes to mind. The fact that Jim Bakker of all people still has a loyal following of evangelicals who keep buying his crap is something I wouldn't believe if I didn't see it myself.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:44 pm Well my point is, they should. Survivalistically it's more important not to be tricked by people smarter than you than to hold the best belief about where the universe came from. It's why they run for the hills. You see this turning away behaviour when you're telling the truth, but he doesn't know that. And it's frustrating.
Sometimes I tell people the best way to see if someone is lying to you is to call them a liar. If they get offended to be called a liar, they're lying. If they say, yeah, I can see that you have no way to discern that I'm telling the truth, you really ought to assume I'm lying... Well then they're at least not certainly lying.
Move up rather than move down.....I like that!I don't really understand why, but the ick is there. My only friend up through high school was a neo-Nazi and he just did not want to believe that humans originally came from Africa, and I think it's the exact same ick. By my thinking he should be happy if he thinks that the kind of thing he is, is better than the kind of thing that his distant ancestors were. I would be more happy to move up than to have moved down.
And again I think it comes back to the root issue, i.e. scripture, in this case the narrative about how humans are "fallen" from a place of perfection. When it comes to the question of how did everything come to be, some folks look to scripture to tell them and hold to the belief that since it's the literal word of God, then it must be absolutely correct and accurate. From that POV, science (aka the "works of man") will always be subservient to scripture, which is why it's usually a waste of time to provide science material to creationists. It's no different than when Christians quote scripture to atheists....both cases are someone citing a source that the other person doesn't value.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1102Happens in science a lot, although the cited material is data, not merely claims. Often a researcher, in a paper, will cite data and findings from his own research along with that of others.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:37 pm What's that quote about doctors who treat themselves? Well, whatever it is I think it also applies to those who reference themselves to support claims they themselves make.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1103I wasn't quoting myself,The Barbarian wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:30 pmHappens in science a lot, although the cited material is data, not merely claims. Often a researcher, in a paper, will cite data and findings from his own research along with that of others.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:37 pm What's that quote about doctors who treat themselves? Well, whatever it is I think it also applies to those who reference themselves to support claims they themselves make.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1104William wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:39 pmI wasn't quoting myself,The Barbarian wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:30 pmHappens in science a lot, although the cited material is data, not merely claims. Often a researcher, in a paper, will cite data and findings from his own research along with that of others.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:37 pm What's that quote about doctors who treat themselves? Well, whatever it is I think it also applies to those who reference themselves to support claims they themselves make.
I didn't mean you. I was referring to Sherlock's post. But you're right, you didn't quote yourself.
Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1105For the record, I am not the person who wrote "What's that quote about doctors who treat themselves? Well, whatever it is I think it also applies to those who reference themselves to support claims they themselves make".William wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:39 pmI wasn't quoting myself,The Barbarian wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:30 pmHappens in science a lot, although the cited material is data, not merely claims. Often a researcher, in a paper, will cite data and findings from his own research along with that of others.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:37 pm What's that quote about doctors who treat themselves? Well, whatever it is I think it also applies to those who reference themselves to support claims they themselves make.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1106Noted.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:02 am
For the record, I am not the person who wrote "What's that quote about doctors who treat themselves? Well, whatever it is I think it also applies to those who reference themselves to support claims they themselves make".
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1107Sources matter, and it's very important they be trustworthy.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:41 pm Well if we're honest with ourselves we have to note that evolution denial/creationism is primarily a conservative evangelical Christian phenomenon, and that group doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to being conned. Their history with faith healers and televangelists comes to mind. The fact that Jim Bakker of all people still has a loyal following of evangelicals who keep buying his crap is something I wouldn't believe if I didn't see it myself.
The protection that "in-group-sources-only" grants against being deceived is actually quite a strong one. However, sadly, deceivers have learned to crack it, and successfully signal that they are inside this group when they are decidedly not. There is no way anyone bilking these hapless Christians would be doing it if they thought they would burn for it.
Well, there's one way, and it has to do with the very problematic say-you're-sorry-and-saved premise of Christianity.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1108Very true. Some have suggested that since I'm a biologist and have a decent amount of knowledge of evolution/creationism world, I could probably make a chunk of money by pretending to be a creationist and telling the eager faithful what they want to hear. Something along the lines of "I work in biology and I've seen with my own eyes how the data really does support creation, but the evil anti-God scientists keep it suppressed".Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:56 pmSources matter, and it's very important they be trustworthy.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:41 pm Well if we're honest with ourselves we have to note that evolution denial/creationism is primarily a conservative evangelical Christian phenomenon, and that group doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to being conned. Their history with faith healers and televangelists comes to mind. The fact that Jim Bakker of all people still has a loyal following of evangelicals who keep buying his crap is something I wouldn't believe if I didn't see it myself.
The protection that "in-group-sources-only" grants against being deceived is actually quite a strong one. However, sadly, deceivers have learned to crack it, and successfully signal that they are inside this group when they are decidedly not. There is no way anyone bilking these hapless Christians would be doing it if they thought they would burn for it.
Well, there's one way, and it has to do with the very problematic say-you're-sorry-and-saved premise of Christianity.
But I just can't bring myself to dupe grandma and grandpa out of their savings.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1109This is one thing I have against capitalism. It punishes people like you and rewards people without scruples who will do this.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:50 pm Very true. Some have suggested that since I'm a biologist and have a decent amount of knowledge of evolution/creationism world, I could probably make a chunk of money by pretending to be a creationist and telling the eager faithful what they want to hear. Something along the lines of "I work in biology and I've seen with my own eyes how the data really does support creation, but the evil anti-God scientists keep it suppressed".
But I just can't bring myself to dupe grandma and grandpa out of their savings.
Capitalism can work, but one of the things that has to happen is that everyone must become ruthless and be willing to do this, so that we will have a level playing field and the best man really will win.
Right now your scruples are giving a benefit to Grandma, and a million more of you are doing the same in one form or another because the type of unscrupulous person who will do that is actually still very rare, and all the Grandmas and Grandpas of society are reaping this benefit as they nod their heads, praise capitalism, and say, "See how good a society free competition makes? My word we really are lucky to have freedom," as they continue to vote for the thing that's slowly killing off the people who selflessly help them when society would greatly reward for doing the opposite.
When that selective pressure has had its way with humanity and everyone is Jim Bakker but there's nobody left to scam, I think society is going to have an oh crud moment and it's going to be a lot harder to dig out of that hole when the last system killed off the virtues which every society must be built upon so it could harvest those extra immediate golden eggs out of the dead golden geese and claim it produced peak prosperity.
I'm actually not knocking this totally though. If society's choice is to follow through, that world is livable, and everyone is always looking to bilk everyone else, but as a consequence everyone is alert, canny, thinking, and rational. Critical thinking won't be something we turn off, ever, because if we do we immediately get taken for everything we've got. All of this constant scamming and defence against it is phenomenally energy-wasting, but it produces a world basically free of irrationality and blind trust.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1110Very well put.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:01 pmThis is one thing I have against capitalism. It punishes people like you and rewards people without scruples who will do this.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:50 pm Very true. Some have suggested that since I'm a biologist and have a decent amount of knowledge of evolution/creationism world, I could probably make a chunk of money by pretending to be a creationist and telling the eager faithful what they want to hear. Something along the lines of "I work in biology and I've seen with my own eyes how the data really does support creation, but the evil anti-God scientists keep it suppressed".
But I just can't bring myself to dupe grandma and grandpa out of their savings.
Capitalism can work, but one of the things that has to happen is that everyone must become ruthless and be willing to do this, so that we will have a level playing field and the best man really will win.
Right now your scruples are giving a benefit to Grandma, and a million more of you are doing the same in one form or another because the type of unscrupulous person who will do that is actually still very rare, and all the Grandmas and Grandpas of society are reaping this benefit as they nod their heads, praise capitalism, and say, "See how good a society free competition makes? My word we really are lucky to have freedom," as they continue to vote for the thing that's slowly killing off the people who selflessly help them when society would greatly reward for doing the opposite.
When that selective pressure has had its way with humanity and everyone is Jim Bakker but there's nobody left to scam, I think society is going to have an oh crud moment and it's going to be a lot harder to dig out of that hole when the last system killed off the virtues which every society must be built upon so it could harvest those extra immediate golden eggs out of the dead golden geese and claim it produced peak prosperity.
I'm actually not knocking this totally though. If society's choice is to follow through, that world is livable, and everyone is always looking to bilk everyone else, but as a consequence everyone is alert, canny, thinking, and rational. Critical thinking won't be something we turn off, ever, because if we do we immediately get taken for everything we've got. All of this constant scamming and defence against it is phenomenally energy-wasting, but it produces a world basically free of irrationality and blind trust.
I recently read a summary of a hypothesis put forth by some psychologists (I think) who proposed that one of the factors behind the recent increases divisiveness is that we now live in a culture where you have to constantly be on guard against scammers. Someone contacting you through text, email, social media, etc. and trying to scam you out of your money and/or personal info is literally a daily occurrence. Their hypothesis is that these constant attempts to scam you have very real effects on your psyche and view of others (basically it makes us all distrustful). Play that out for years and you end up with a society where no one trusts anyone outside of their tribe and everyone generally assumes everyone not in their tribe is out to get them. Thus you get "people in group X are evil" rather than "I disagree with people in group X on some things".
And yes, a big driver behind that is unfettered capitalism, which provides the environment in which this scam culture not only persists, but flourishes. But I also think the basic human behaviors that drive it will exist in just about any economic system, with some being better than others at keeping it in check.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.