How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

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Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1191

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Eloi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:08 pm Since when are viruses animal species? :shock:
They're biological entities. Evolution works on biological entities.

Now what objection might you raise?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1192

Post by Eloi »

Objection? I have none ... You have not demonstrated anything at all. I do not believe in evolution, and microevolution is not macroevolution. I guess you guys confuse a lot of people with that fallacy.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1193

Post by Diogenes »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:40 pmThe arguments for the fossil record being evidence of a continuous process don't convince me and never have.
This may shock you, but the scientific community (and others) are not concerned about what convinces you. We can observe evolution taking place in front of us. Scientists are overwhelmingly convinced of the truth of evolutionary processes. Evolution is accepted as fact, the bedrock of biology.
The evidence in favour is so overwhelming that evolution is accepted as fact in all open-minded circles. Perhaps the most compelling aspect of the scientific case is the way in which the evidence from different sources all points to the same conclusion.

Thus, the evidence from the fossil record, from the comparative anatomies of living species and from molecular details of living species all point to biological evolution.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/evidenc ... -1.1114705
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1194

Post by Eloi »

Perhaps some atheists have convinced many others by telling them the same story so much, especially when they are threatened not to continue being part of the club...
There are scientists who are less impressionable and whom no one can manipulate based on fallacies. They do not mind that club, they need real evidences.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1195

Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:12 pm If you want to focus on other characteristics like humans cooking, playing chess, driving cars, keeping pets, writing and so on, then taxonomic classification is no good because it doesn't consider these other differences.
So anyone who has never driven a car, never kept a pet, never cooked, never developed a system of taxonomy, never played chess, never written anything, and so on, can't be classified as a human.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1196

Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:40 pm The arguments for the fossil record being evidence of a continuous process don't convince me and never have.
I thought you once said that when you were an atheist you argued all of that stuff from the other side.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1197

Post by brunumb »

Eloi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:19 pm Objection? I have none ... You have not demonstrated anything at all. I do not believe in evolution, and microevolution is not macroevolution. I guess you guys confuse a lot of people with that fallacy.
That's like saying small bananas are not big bananas, even though they are both bananas. There is only evolution. Creationist who are hard pressed to deny it will accept the observable occurrence of small changes and call it micro-evolution. They just stumble at the hurdle of the long term cumulative result of small changes logically being able to result in large or significant changes, what they refer to as macro-evolution.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1198

Post by Eloi »

Small changes in microevolution have a limit. All serious researchers on this subject know that.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1199

Post by brunumb »

Eloi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:29 pm Perhaps some atheists have convinced many others by telling them the same story so much, especially when they are threatened not to continue being part of the club...
There are scientists who are less impressionable and whom no one can manipulate based on fallacies. They do not mind that club, they need real evidences.
That is a very curious argument. One doesn't need to be an atheist to accept the theory of evolution and it is even possible for an atheist to reject the theory. The same applies to theists. How well one can evaluate the evidence while leaving aside any biases is a key issue. Personal integrity also matters. To what extent are some people willing to go to prop up their deeply held beliefs?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1200

Post by Eloi »

... to the extend of creating something like a Piltdown man, perhaps?

Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... _incidents

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