Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Swami
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Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Post by Swami »

Strategically speaking, should not one know about a tool before they use it? We rely on awareness to know things. Should not scientists understand consciousness before proclaiming materialism?

Strategically, the thinkers and traditions of the East are better suited to understand reality because of their focus on the nature of self.

This speaker explains



*self= consciousness

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Swami wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:57 pm Strategically speaking, should not one know about a tool before they use it?
Only to the degree that it's necessary. I use my computer as a tool of communication, but I'll be darned if I need to know how its bells and whistles interface.

We rely on awareness to know things. Should not scientists understand consciousness before proclaiming materialism?
Nope. Philosophically, materialism is a doctrine that asserts reality exists only in matter and its movement---the only reality doctrine rooted in convincing evidence---so I fail to see where or why understanding consciousness would necessarily bear on it.

Strategically, the thinkers and traditions of the East are better suited to understand reality because of their focus on the nature of self.
Practically, the thinkers and traditions of the East are better suited to understanding the sound of one hand clapping and why Buddha is five pounds of flax, and don't push their intellectual pursuits beyond such koanzles.


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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Post by The Barbarian »

Consciousness seems unable to understand itself. Maybe the "strange loop" concept of Douglas Hoffstader is a useful way to look at it.

Fortunately, science is capable of finding out about things, and even making them useful, without complete understanding.

Maybe that's the best we can do. Still, lots of work is being done on the mechanics of consciousness. And philosophers and theologians continue to work on the problem.

Theologically, once one realizes that the "death" God referred to in Genesis is a spiritual death, not a physical one, the issue goes away. After all, God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree. Adam eats and yet lives on physically for many years thereafter. So we know it wasn't a physical death that Adam brought into the world.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Post by mgb »

Miles wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:05 amPhilosophically, materialism is a doctrine that asserts reality exists only in matter and its movement---the only reality doctrine rooted in convincing evidence...
I don't see that this is the case. For example there is evidence (not the same as proof) that suggests intelligence behind evolution, evidence that suggests the universe has its origins in mind (Fine Tuning Argument) etc. Of course, if you limit your definition of evidence you are not likely to accept evidence outside that definition. For the sake of argument, what do you consider evidence to be? Would you accept that strong argument is evidence?

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Post by Miles »

mgb wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:10 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:05 amPhilosophically, materialism is a doctrine that asserts reality exists only in matter and its movement---the only reality doctrine rooted in convincing evidence...
I don't see that this is the case. For example there is evidence (not the same as proof) that suggests intelligence behind evolution, evidence that suggests the universe has its origins in mind (Fine Tuning Argument) etc.
Great, I love evidence. Bring it on.


Of course, if you limit your definition of evidence you are not likely to accept evidence outside that definition. For the sake of argument, what do you consider evidence to be?
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Would you accept that strong argument is evidence?
Only if the argument is sound, i.e. its premises are true and its form is valid, such as syllogisms:

................All M are P
................No S are P
................________
................No S are M


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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Post by Swami »

Miles wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:05 am Nope. Philosophically, materialism is a doctrine that asserts reality exists only in matter and its movement---the only reality doctrine rooted in convincing evidence---so I fail to see where or why understanding consciousness would necessarily bear on it.
There is plenty of evidence that materialism is false. It can not explain the big questions.

Miles wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:05 am Practically, the thinkers and traditions of the East are better suited to understanding the sound of one hand clapping and why Buddha is five pounds of flax, and don't push their intellectual pursuits beyond such koanzles.
Why do so many Western Scientists flock to Eastern thinkers in search of answers? I know at least a dozen scientists that have left their careers to spread a message that challenges the materialistic worldview. Dr. Eben Alexander comes to mind. Others are not as well known.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Post by Swami »

Miles wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:45 pm Great, I love evidence. Bring it on.
There is plenty of evidence that materialism is false and evil.

I challenge you to not simply expect others to provide it for you, or to just read about it on the internet. Take the time to engage in field research. Every skeptic that has turned to spirituality has done so because of experience. Playing this non sense debate game is a waste of time when you are unwilling to experience it for yourself.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Post by mgb »

Miles wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:45 pm Great, I love evidence. Bring it on.
I already have. The Fine Tuning Argument suits the definition of evidence you have given.
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
The key word here is 'Indicating'. That means it supports an argument. To indicate is not the same as proof.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

mgb wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:10 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:05 amPhilosophically, materialism is a doctrine that asserts reality exists only in matter and its movement---the only reality doctrine rooted in convincing evidence...
I don't see that this is the case. For example there is evidence (not the same as proof) that suggests intelligence behind evolution,
I'm curious to see this "evidence" to compare against such conclusions drawn therefrom.
evidence that suggests the universe has its origins in mind (Fine Tuning Argument) etc.
Same here.

We can declare there's evidence for anything. Providing that evidence is the key to its understanding.
Of course, if you limit your definition of evidence you are not likely to accept evidence outside that definition.
Lacking evidence for your alleged evidence leads me to think you're trying to imply folks'd reject it based on a faulty definition. That reads a lot like implying nefarity on the part of folks who'd reject evidence you've yet to provide.

How might anyone properly define evidence you've yet to provide?

So until you provide evidence, I think the most accurate definition for that'd be "ghosty".
For the sake of argument, what do you consider evidence to be?
That set of data a claimant presents in support of their claims.
Would you accept that strong argument is evidence?
I'd withhold judgement at least until you presented a strong argument.

Please let us all know when you've actually presented one.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #10

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Swami in post #6]
It can not explain the big questions.


You're jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. Just because science/materialism may not YET be able to explain some of the big questions (origin of life, origin of the universe, detailed mechanisms resulting in consciousness, etc.) does not mean it never will or cannot. There are many examples of natural phenomena that science could not explain in the past, but are now fully explained (eg. why planets move as they do, why volcanoes erupt, how sight works, and countless other examples).

Science works to explain things using accumulated knowledge and observations, measurements, etc. that can shed light on the problem. It doesn't just stop and assign a supernatural explanation for lack of a better idea. It has yet to be proved that consciousness is anything more than an emergent property of a working brain.
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