Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Swami
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Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

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Post by Swami »

Strategically speaking, should not one know about a tool before they use it? We rely on awareness to know things. Should not scientists understand consciousness before proclaiming materialism?

Strategically, the thinkers and traditions of the East are better suited to understand reality because of their focus on the nature of self.

This speaker explains



*self= consciousness

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #21

Post by JoeyKnothead »

mgb wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:33 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:55 pm You declare how "fine tuning" makes for a compelling argument.

And I request what evidence you think supports your argument.
Isn't it self evident?
No.
Fine Tuning strongly points to an intelligently conceived universe and intelligence implies the existence of mind and mind implies the existence of God.
So puddles were intelligently designed to hold just that amount of water that fits in em?

And our eyes were designed with a blind spot cause our eyes ate an apple?
That's the basic argument and it is compelling.
It's basic alright, but not in the way you think.

And it's about as compelling as a kid with a handful of cookies saying he don't know nothing bout no jar.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #22

Post by Swami »

DrNoGods wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:57 pm You're jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. Just because science/materialism may not YET be able to explain some of the big questions (origin of life, origin of the universe, detailed mechanisms resulting in consciousness, etc.) does not mean it never will or cannot. There are many examples of natural phenomena that science could not explain in the past, but are now fully explained (eg. why planets move as they do, why volcanoes erupt, how sight works, and countless other examples).

Science works to explain things using accumulated knowledge and observations, measurements, etc. that can shed light on the problem. It doesn't just stop and assign a supernatural explanation for lack of a better idea. It has yet to be proved that consciousness is anything more than an emergent property of a working brain.
Scientists do not perceive reality as it is. Everything that we perceive is filtered through our nervous system. Every scientist will tell you this so this should not be hard to accept.

This is obviously a limitation of science. Scientists have not resolved this problem, and it will continue to be a problem as they continue to cling to the materialistic worldview.

You have already heard my views on Eastern thought, how matter does not exist independently of consciousness, how consciousness is fundamental reality, etc. Even if that is hard to accept then consider that the method of perceiving without filters is far superior at getting to fundamental reality than the limited observations of Western scientists.

At best, Western scientists should be willing to adopt Eastern methods, but there is intolerance even when it comes to that idea.
Last edited by Swami on Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #23

Post by Swami »

Miles wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:46 pm AHH, JUST TO BRING YOU UP TO SPEED HERE, THIS IS A DEBATE FORUM, WHERE DEBATE IS NOT ONLY EXPECTED, BUT DEMANDED.
This is irrelevant. Please show me a genuine debate if this is not a game. Show me where the two parties were actually listening to each other.

The most important thing to show are the results. How many people on this forum have cleared their doubts because of a debate? How many atheists?

None.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #24

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Swami in post #22]
Scientists do not perceive reality as it is. Everything that we perceive is filtered through our nervous system. Every scientist will tell you this so this should not be hard to accept.
I don't know of anyone who would argue that we observe and interpret things through our senses ... that is why these senses evolved in the first place. It is how we as humans experience the world around us. Nothing to argue with there.
This is obviously a limitation of science. Scientists have not resolved this problem, and it will continue to be a problem as they continue to cling to the materialistic worldview.
Why is this a limitation of science? What other method is there available to humans to perceive our environment? If we can't see, hear, feel, smell or taste it then it is beyond our set of sensory inputs to experience it. We've built all kinds of instrumentation to greatly enchance our abilities in all of these areas, and nothing has yet proven a materialistic world view to be false. Just the opposite.
You have already heard my views on Eastern thought, how matter does not exist independently of consciousness, how consciousness is fundamental reality, etc. Even if that is hard to accept then consider that the method of perceiving without filters is far superior at getting to fundamental reality than the limited observations of Western scientists.
You place consciousness at a very high level as if it is something magical and fundamental to all things, while materialism is somehow flawed and incorrect despite its far greater success at explaining the natural world and how it actually works. What has "eastern thought" brought to the table in this regard?
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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #25

Post by Miles »

Swami wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:17 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:46 pm AHH, JUST TO BRING YOU UP TO SPEED HERE, THIS IS A DEBATE FORUM, WHERE DEBATE IS NOT ONLY EXPECTED, BUT DEMANDED.
This is irrelevant.
Not when you say things like,

"Playing this non sense debate game is a waste of time when you are unwilling to experience it for yourself."

just to avoid presenting evidence that "suggests intelligence behind evolution," and "suggests the universe has its origins in mind (Fine Tuning Argument)." (In reference to your remark to mgb's assertion in post #4)

The most important thing to show are the results.
Only if they're sound and worthwhile. AND, sometimes the journey is more important than the destination.

How many people on this forum have cleared their doubts because of a debate? How many atheists?
How many people on this forum have cleared their doubts because of contemplating their navel. How many Hindus?

None.
First hyperbole and now omniscience. Image Or is this just another instance of wishful thinking rather than a statement of "fact"?


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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #26

Post by Swami »

Miles wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:19 am
Swami wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:17 pm How many people on this forum have cleared their doubts because of a debate? How many atheists?
How many people on this forum have cleared their doubts because of contemplating their navel. How many Hindus?
Perhaps to you, meditation is a game. It is a powerful tool to the many who actually practice it.

Billionaire Ray Dalio credits his success to 40 minutes of meditation per day
Long before it was cool, Ray Dalio credited his financial success to a simple practice: a daily meditation. Twice per day, the 72-year-old billionaire closes his eyes and repeats a short mantra in his head for 20 minutes at a time, he tells CNBC Make It. It’s a practice known as Transcendental Meditation (TM), which Dalio says he adopted in 1969 — six years before he founded Westport, Connecticut-based hedge fund Bridgewater Associates.

Over the following five decades, Dalio built Bridgewater into the world’s largest hedge fund before stepping down as co-CEO in 2017. Today, Bridgewater manages more than $150 billion in assets.

The first step, Dalio says, is to find a quiet space. Then, sit comfortably, close your eyes and think of your mantra. Once you have your mantra, “you sit there in peace and you repeat that mantra over and over again,” he says. Eventually, the repetition supersedes the rest of your thoughts, sending you into a transcendent state. “You’re peaceful. You’re quiet,” he says. “You’re not awake, but you’re not asleep.”

It’s both “terrific and frustrating,” he explains, since the point of the meditation is to put aside your ideas and focus on your mantra. “Sometimes I almost want to have a pencil and paper next to me,” he says. “I don’t want to lose the idea.”

Dalio’s theory: Great ideas hit you during meditations because you’re tapping into your subconscious, where your creativity tends to thrive. He compares it to the relaxation you experience while taking a hot shower and letting the creative ideas just come to you.

“When you want to be creative, you don’t say I’m going to go work hard and think about being creative,” he says.

Though Dalio resists the urge to write down his ideas during his meditation sessions, he says he emerges from them better equipped to make tough decisions.

“I’ll see things clearer,” he says.
Source - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/18/billion ... cceed.html

The most important insight is in the last sentence - "I see clearer".

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #27

Post by mgb »

Swami wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:43 pm
Billionaire Ray Dalio credits his success to 40 minutes of meditation per day
People who use spiritual/psychic methods to obtain material goods are practicing magic (in league with evil spirits).

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #28

Post by Purple Knight »

Swami wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:57 pm Strategically speaking, should not one know about a tool before they use it?
Well, I wish... but we don't live in that world. Not everyone can learn how a car works, for example; that would be inefficient. But most of us still need one.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #29

Post by brunumb »

Swami wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:43 pm Perhaps to you, meditation is a game. It is a powerful tool to the many who actually practice it.

Billionaire Ray Dalio credits his success to 40 minutes of meditation per day
There is nothing to show that meditation contributed anything more than an environment free of distraction. Big deal.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: Consciousness should be Most important topic in Science

Post #30

Post by Tcg »

Swami wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:43 pm
Billionaire Ray Dalio credits his success to 40 minutes of meditation per day
Good for him. Absent verifiable evidence to support his conclusion, his claim is meaningless. Besides which I thought material wealth would be something Swamis and other meditationists would reject. Perhaps material wealth is grand for those at the top of the meditation heap but not for the average meditation shlep. If it was grand for all, those at the top couldn't benefit from their ascension to enlightenment and driving Ferraris.

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