The Big Bang And The First Atom

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The Big Bang And The First Atom

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Post by Miles »

.


I stumbled across the following video (≈ 17 min), which in animated form shows some of what science knows and doesn't know about the beginning of our universe and the formation of its elementary particles. As familiar with it as I am, I still found it pretty cool.


.............................


How do you find it?

Think the singularity sitting there before Planck time at t=0s could be God?


.

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Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #61

Post by alexxcJRO »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:30 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:34 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:16 pm

What exactly did John Barrow say that leads you to say "if shown to be correct will make the hypothesis: God initiated Bing Bang go out the window"?
I said from what I seen from physicists like Alan Guth.

Big Bang Model: we have an initial state of a dense soup of particles that were uniformly spread in all space 13.8 billions of years ago, space that was expanding.
Scientist don’t really know that the universe really began with the Big Bang and whether or not anything came before. It its somewhat unknown.

We can’t really say that the universe began as in beginning of existence but just the beginning of our local universe as a result of the implication of inflation leading to a multiverse idea.

Big Bang model describes how the universe expanded and cooled. How helium, hydrogen and lithium formed. How matter got pulled, clumped together to form stars, galaxies and clusters of galaxies.
Big Bang model does not explain what caused the expansion(where all the matter-particles from initial soup came from), only describes the aftermath of the supposed “Bang”.
Similarly how evolutionary theory does not describe the origin of life but the diversification.

Big bang model is not a theory of the bang but a theory of the aftermath of a bang: the evolution of universe from a primordial soup.

Inflation comes as a way to answer this question: what caused the expansion and the “Bang”?
Inflation takes advantage of possibility within General Relativity when combined with modern particles theory of gravitation to there being a repulsive force at very high energies(to have energy densities and negative pressures producing gravitational fields as opposed to only mass densities and positive pressure producing normal gravity).

Inflation proposes that there was a patch of repulsive gravity material existing in the early universe, which after exponentially expanded, doubling in size at every ~10power-37seconds.
In 100 doublings it could get from a patch of 10power-28cm to a small marble size region. This is supposed to have happen in just 10power-35 seconds.
This repulsive gravity material because is unstable decayed and released energy (lead to the formation of the previously mention soup of particles. This marks the end of inflation and beginning of expansion).
In any location the probability of remaining in an inflation state decreases exponentially with time while the volume of any region in inflation also growing exponentially. In most models the growth rate is faster then the decay rate. Therefore there could be no end-> eternal inflation(forever into the future but not into the past).
Whenever a piece of this inflating region decays to a more normal state produces a pocket universe that locally looks like a Big Bang. This process would go add infinitum. Our universe may be one of such pocket universes in multiverse where we have many Bangs.

Observation: One important thing is the energy density of this repulsive gravity material does not decreased when the volume in which it resides increases. The conservation of energy is not broken because as the positive energy of repulsive gravity material increases the negative energy of the gravitational field that filled the region increased as well in a negative way making possible for the total energy of our universe(possible pocket universe) to be zero.

Inflation theory combined string theory also talk of:
->Dark energy being vacuum energy(energy of nothingness) – cosmological constant.
->5 billions of years ago matter thinned enough so dark energy= vacuum energy to take over and accelerate the expansion again.
->String theory may explain the very small vacuum energy we observe because there may be huge set of vacuum like states one of which may the one that filled our pocket universe. Eternal inflation will say we may have different pocket universes with different kinds of vacuum inside them which would be determined randomly as this pocket universes break of from inflating backbone. You would have different vacuums from the set, different laws of physics and different particles depending on pocket universe while having the same laws of strig theory everywhere in all pockets.

Evidence supporting inflation:
1. Large scale uniformity of the universe(possible pocket universe)->Cosmic Background Radiation(how the universe looked when it was 400.000 old).
To get this uniformity using the evolution equations in Big Bang Theory, matter and energy needs to be moved at about 100 times the speed of light which leads to the assumptions that the uniformity was there before the soup existed. This is what made room for inflation as an explanation. Before inflation the universe was incredibly small and this made possible(was enough time) for it to get uniform without any violations. Then inflation stretched this uniformly incredible small patch the size that will later become the observable universe.

2. Flatness(in a Euclidean style) geometry problem of the universe:
Flatness in general relativity is related to its mass density Ω.
Ω = actual mass density / critical mass density(critical mass related to expansion rate).
Where Ω = 1 means flat geometry, Omega > 1 means closed geometry, Omega < 1 means open geometry.
If Ω > 1 the universe recollapses before there is any time for galaxies to form.
If Ω < 1 the universe’s density will go down too fast for galaxies to be able to have time to form.
Universe we live has an observed a density parameter Ω very close to 1(observations from Plank satelite).
The issue is the universe to be so close to critical density after 13.8 billion years of expansion, it must have been even closer at earlier stages, starting close to 1.
Inflation makes this problem go away with Ω going towards 1 exponentially fast. Therefore it could have begun(at start of inflation) at almost any value. This settles the issue why the Ω was close to 1 in the early stages of the universe.

3. Non-uniformity on small scale detected in the CBR. Inflation answers where this non-uniformities-ripples came from, mostly quantum effects/quantum fluctuation.
Inflationary models make a clear prediction for the spectrum of this fluctuations(how intensity varies with wavelength).
It also can be measured(WMAP data) and can compare the prediction with measurements.
Inflationary graph prediction matches perfectly with measurements while other models predictions do not.
Image


C: Inflation theory coupled with eternal inflation theory, string theory shows we can have our universe being determined by natural causes.
Christians might have to move God in the next hole.
Move the goal post again: God may have started the inflation process but not our pocket universe.
Q: Why bring positive evidence(like scientist try to do) and try to prove the God hypothesis when one can just forever make an argument from ignorance and God of gaps fallacy?
Again, if you want to discuss then you'll need to stop making such pleonastic posts, there are just too many points raised by your posts (note how nobody else ever seems to reply to you?)
More wining. More excuses. More avoidance.
Q: Why come here to debate if its too hard for you? Go play with toys.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #62

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:28 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:30 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:34 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:16 pm

What exactly did John Barrow say that leads you to say "if shown to be correct will make the hypothesis: God initiated Bing Bang go out the window"?
I said from what I seen from physicists like Alan Guth.

Big Bang Model: we have an initial state of a dense soup of particles that were uniformly spread in all space 13.8 billions of years ago, space that was expanding.
Scientist don’t really know that the universe really began with the Big Bang and whether or not anything came before. It its somewhat unknown.

We can’t really say that the universe began as in beginning of existence but just the beginning of our local universe as a result of the implication of inflation leading to a multiverse idea.

Big Bang model describes how the universe expanded and cooled. How helium, hydrogen and lithium formed. How matter got pulled, clumped together to form stars, galaxies and clusters of galaxies.
Big Bang model does not explain what caused the expansion(where all the matter-particles from initial soup came from), only describes the aftermath of the supposed “Bang”.
Similarly how evolutionary theory does not describe the origin of life but the diversification.

Big bang model is not a theory of the bang but a theory of the aftermath of a bang: the evolution of universe from a primordial soup.

Inflation comes as a way to answer this question: what caused the expansion and the “Bang”?
Inflation takes advantage of possibility within General Relativity when combined with modern particles theory of gravitation to there being a repulsive force at very high energies(to have energy densities and negative pressures producing gravitational fields as opposed to only mass densities and positive pressure producing normal gravity).

Inflation proposes that there was a patch of repulsive gravity material existing in the early universe, which after exponentially expanded, doubling in size at every ~10power-37seconds.
In 100 doublings it could get from a patch of 10power-28cm to a small marble size region. This is supposed to have happen in just 10power-35 seconds.
This repulsive gravity material because is unstable decayed and released energy (lead to the formation of the previously mention soup of particles. This marks the end of inflation and beginning of expansion).
In any location the probability of remaining in an inflation state decreases exponentially with time while the volume of any region in inflation also growing exponentially. In most models the growth rate is faster then the decay rate. Therefore there could be no end-> eternal inflation(forever into the future but not into the past).
Whenever a piece of this inflating region decays to a more normal state produces a pocket universe that locally looks like a Big Bang. This process would go add infinitum. Our universe may be one of such pocket universes in multiverse where we have many Bangs.

Observation: One important thing is the energy density of this repulsive gravity material does not decreased when the volume in which it resides increases. The conservation of energy is not broken because as the positive energy of repulsive gravity material increases the negative energy of the gravitational field that filled the region increased as well in a negative way making possible for the total energy of our universe(possible pocket universe) to be zero.

Inflation theory combined string theory also talk of:
->Dark energy being vacuum energy(energy of nothingness) – cosmological constant.
->5 billions of years ago matter thinned enough so dark energy= vacuum energy to take over and accelerate the expansion again.
->String theory may explain the very small vacuum energy we observe because there may be huge set of vacuum like states one of which may the one that filled our pocket universe. Eternal inflation will say we may have different pocket universes with different kinds of vacuum inside them which would be determined randomly as this pocket universes break of from inflating backbone. You would have different vacuums from the set, different laws of physics and different particles depending on pocket universe while having the same laws of strig theory everywhere in all pockets.

Evidence supporting inflation:
1. Large scale uniformity of the universe(possible pocket universe)->Cosmic Background Radiation(how the universe looked when it was 400.000 old).
To get this uniformity using the evolution equations in Big Bang Theory, matter and energy needs to be moved at about 100 times the speed of light which leads to the assumptions that the uniformity was there before the soup existed. This is what made room for inflation as an explanation. Before inflation the universe was incredibly small and this made possible(was enough time) for it to get uniform without any violations. Then inflation stretched this uniformly incredible small patch the size that will later become the observable universe.

2. Flatness(in a Euclidean style) geometry problem of the universe:
Flatness in general relativity is related to its mass density Ω.
Ω = actual mass density / critical mass density(critical mass related to expansion rate).
Where Ω = 1 means flat geometry, Omega > 1 means closed geometry, Omega < 1 means open geometry.
If Ω > 1 the universe recollapses before there is any time for galaxies to form.
If Ω < 1 the universe’s density will go down too fast for galaxies to be able to have time to form.
Universe we live has an observed a density parameter Ω very close to 1(observations from Plank satelite).
The issue is the universe to be so close to critical density after 13.8 billion years of expansion, it must have been even closer at earlier stages, starting close to 1.
Inflation makes this problem go away with Ω going towards 1 exponentially fast. Therefore it could have begun(at start of inflation) at almost any value. This settles the issue why the Ω was close to 1 in the early stages of the universe.

3. Non-uniformity on small scale detected in the CBR. Inflation answers where this non-uniformities-ripples came from, mostly quantum effects/quantum fluctuation.
Inflationary models make a clear prediction for the spectrum of this fluctuations(how intensity varies with wavelength).
It also can be measured(WMAP data) and can compare the prediction with measurements.
Inflationary graph prediction matches perfectly with measurements while other models predictions do not.
Image


C: Inflation theory coupled with eternal inflation theory, string theory shows we can have our universe being determined by natural causes.
Christians might have to move God in the next hole.
Move the goal post again: God may have started the inflation process but not our pocket universe.
Q: Why bring positive evidence(like scientist try to do) and try to prove the God hypothesis when one can just forever make an argument from ignorance and God of gaps fallacy?
Again, if you want to discuss then you'll need to stop making such pleonastic posts, there are just too many points raised by your posts (note how nobody else ever seems to reply to you?)
More wining. More excuses. More avoidance.
Q: Why come here to debate if its too hard for you? Go play with toys.
Sorry but those are my terms, your posts are far too long, if that's the only way you can express yourself then we can't debate, most others here do not resort to these huge copy/paste posts.

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Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #63

Post by alexxcJRO »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:33 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:28 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:30 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:34 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:16 pm

What exactly did John Barrow say that leads you to say "if shown to be correct will make the hypothesis: God initiated Bing Bang go out the window"?
I said from what I seen from physicists like Alan Guth.

Big Bang Model: we have an initial state of a dense soup of particles that were uniformly spread in all space 13.8 billions of years ago, space that was expanding.
Scientist don’t really know that the universe really began with the Big Bang and whether or not anything came before. It its somewhat unknown.

We can’t really say that the universe began as in beginning of existence but just the beginning of our local universe as a result of the implication of inflation leading to a multiverse idea.

Big Bang model describes how the universe expanded and cooled. How helium, hydrogen and lithium formed. How matter got pulled, clumped together to form stars, galaxies and clusters of galaxies.
Big Bang model does not explain what caused the expansion(where all the matter-particles from initial soup came from), only describes the aftermath of the supposed “Bang”.
Similarly how evolutionary theory does not describe the origin of life but the diversification.

Big bang model is not a theory of the bang but a theory of the aftermath of a bang: the evolution of universe from a primordial soup.

Inflation comes as a way to answer this question: what caused the expansion and the “Bang”?
Inflation takes advantage of possibility within General Relativity when combined with modern particles theory of gravitation to there being a repulsive force at very high energies(to have energy densities and negative pressures producing gravitational fields as opposed to only mass densities and positive pressure producing normal gravity).

Inflation proposes that there was a patch of repulsive gravity material existing in the early universe, which after exponentially expanded, doubling in size at every ~10power-37seconds.
In 100 doublings it could get from a patch of 10power-28cm to a small marble size region. This is supposed to have happen in just 10power-35 seconds.
This repulsive gravity material because is unstable decayed and released energy (lead to the formation of the previously mention soup of particles. This marks the end of inflation and beginning of expansion).
In any location the probability of remaining in an inflation state decreases exponentially with time while the volume of any region in inflation also growing exponentially. In most models the growth rate is faster then the decay rate. Therefore there could be no end-> eternal inflation(forever into the future but not into the past).
Whenever a piece of this inflating region decays to a more normal state produces a pocket universe that locally looks like a Big Bang. This process would go add infinitum. Our universe may be one of such pocket universes in multiverse where we have many Bangs.

Observation: One important thing is the energy density of this repulsive gravity material does not decreased when the volume in which it resides increases. The conservation of energy is not broken because as the positive energy of repulsive gravity material increases the negative energy of the gravitational field that filled the region increased as well in a negative way making possible for the total energy of our universe(possible pocket universe) to be zero.

Inflation theory combined string theory also talk of:
->Dark energy being vacuum energy(energy of nothingness) – cosmological constant.
->5 billions of years ago matter thinned enough so dark energy= vacuum energy to take over and accelerate the expansion again.
->String theory may explain the very small vacuum energy we observe because there may be huge set of vacuum like states one of which may the one that filled our pocket universe. Eternal inflation will say we may have different pocket universes with different kinds of vacuum inside them which would be determined randomly as this pocket universes break of from inflating backbone. You would have different vacuums from the set, different laws of physics and different particles depending on pocket universe while having the same laws of strig theory everywhere in all pockets.

Evidence supporting inflation:
1. Large scale uniformity of the universe(possible pocket universe)->Cosmic Background Radiation(how the universe looked when it was 400.000 old).
To get this uniformity using the evolution equations in Big Bang Theory, matter and energy needs to be moved at about 100 times the speed of light which leads to the assumptions that the uniformity was there before the soup existed. This is what made room for inflation as an explanation. Before inflation the universe was incredibly small and this made possible(was enough time) for it to get uniform without any violations. Then inflation stretched this uniformly incredible small patch the size that will later become the observable universe.

2. Flatness(in a Euclidean style) geometry problem of the universe:
Flatness in general relativity is related to its mass density Ω.
Ω = actual mass density / critical mass density(critical mass related to expansion rate).
Where Ω = 1 means flat geometry, Omega > 1 means closed geometry, Omega < 1 means open geometry.
If Ω > 1 the universe recollapses before there is any time for galaxies to form.
If Ω < 1 the universe’s density will go down too fast for galaxies to be able to have time to form.
Universe we live has an observed a density parameter Ω very close to 1(observations from Plank satelite).
The issue is the universe to be so close to critical density after 13.8 billion years of expansion, it must have been even closer at earlier stages, starting close to 1.
Inflation makes this problem go away with Ω going towards 1 exponentially fast. Therefore it could have begun(at start of inflation) at almost any value. This settles the issue why the Ω was close to 1 in the early stages of the universe.

3. Non-uniformity on small scale detected in the CBR. Inflation answers where this non-uniformities-ripples came from, mostly quantum effects/quantum fluctuation.
Inflationary models make a clear prediction for the spectrum of this fluctuations(how intensity varies with wavelength).
It also can be measured(WMAP data) and can compare the prediction with measurements.
Inflationary graph prediction matches perfectly with measurements while other models predictions do not.
Image


C: Inflation theory coupled with eternal inflation theory, string theory shows we can have our universe being determined by natural causes.
Christians might have to move God in the next hole.
Move the goal post again: God may have started the inflation process but not our pocket universe.
Q: Why bring positive evidence(like scientist try to do) and try to prove the God hypothesis when one can just forever make an argument from ignorance and God of gaps fallacy?
Again, if you want to discuss then you'll need to stop making such pleonastic posts, there are just too many points raised by your posts (note how nobody else ever seems to reply to you?)
More wining. More excuses. More avoidance.
Q: Why come here to debate if its too hard for you? Go play with toys.
Sorry but those are my terms, your posts are far too long, if that's the only way you can express yourself then we can't debate, most others here do not resort to these huge copy/paste posts.
The post here was not copy paste. Don't lie.
That was a resume of Inflation theory for you to understand.
Instead of thanking me for I am educating you for free, you complain on and one, ad nauseam.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #64

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:34 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:33 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:28 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:30 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:34 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:16 pm

What exactly did John Barrow say that leads you to say "if shown to be correct will make the hypothesis: God initiated Bing Bang go out the window"?
I said from what I seen from physicists like Alan Guth.

Big Bang Model: we have an initial state of a dense soup of particles that were uniformly spread in all space 13.8 billions of years ago, space that was expanding.
Scientist don’t really know that the universe really began with the Big Bang and whether or not anything came before. It its somewhat unknown.

We can’t really say that the universe began as in beginning of existence but just the beginning of our local universe as a result of the implication of inflation leading to a multiverse idea.

Big Bang model describes how the universe expanded and cooled. How helium, hydrogen and lithium formed. How matter got pulled, clumped together to form stars, galaxies and clusters of galaxies.
Big Bang model does not explain what caused the expansion(where all the matter-particles from initial soup came from), only describes the aftermath of the supposed “Bang”.
Similarly how evolutionary theory does not describe the origin of life but the diversification.

Big bang model is not a theory of the bang but a theory of the aftermath of a bang: the evolution of universe from a primordial soup.

Inflation comes as a way to answer this question: what caused the expansion and the “Bang”?
Inflation takes advantage of possibility within General Relativity when combined with modern particles theory of gravitation to there being a repulsive force at very high energies(to have energy densities and negative pressures producing gravitational fields as opposed to only mass densities and positive pressure producing normal gravity).

Inflation proposes that there was a patch of repulsive gravity material existing in the early universe, which after exponentially expanded, doubling in size at every ~10power-37seconds.
In 100 doublings it could get from a patch of 10power-28cm to a small marble size region. This is supposed to have happen in just 10power-35 seconds.
This repulsive gravity material because is unstable decayed and released energy (lead to the formation of the previously mention soup of particles. This marks the end of inflation and beginning of expansion).
In any location the probability of remaining in an inflation state decreases exponentially with time while the volume of any region in inflation also growing exponentially. In most models the growth rate is faster then the decay rate. Therefore there could be no end-> eternal inflation(forever into the future but not into the past).
Whenever a piece of this inflating region decays to a more normal state produces a pocket universe that locally looks like a Big Bang. This process would go add infinitum. Our universe may be one of such pocket universes in multiverse where we have many Bangs.

Observation: One important thing is the energy density of this repulsive gravity material does not decreased when the volume in which it resides increases. The conservation of energy is not broken because as the positive energy of repulsive gravity material increases the negative energy of the gravitational field that filled the region increased as well in a negative way making possible for the total energy of our universe(possible pocket universe) to be zero.

Inflation theory combined string theory also talk of:
->Dark energy being vacuum energy(energy of nothingness) – cosmological constant.
->5 billions of years ago matter thinned enough so dark energy= vacuum energy to take over and accelerate the expansion again.
->String theory may explain the very small vacuum energy we observe because there may be huge set of vacuum like states one of which may the one that filled our pocket universe. Eternal inflation will say we may have different pocket universes with different kinds of vacuum inside them which would be determined randomly as this pocket universes break of from inflating backbone. You would have different vacuums from the set, different laws of physics and different particles depending on pocket universe while having the same laws of strig theory everywhere in all pockets.

Evidence supporting inflation:
1. Large scale uniformity of the universe(possible pocket universe)->Cosmic Background Radiation(how the universe looked when it was 400.000 old).
To get this uniformity using the evolution equations in Big Bang Theory, matter and energy needs to be moved at about 100 times the speed of light which leads to the assumptions that the uniformity was there before the soup existed. This is what made room for inflation as an explanation. Before inflation the universe was incredibly small and this made possible(was enough time) for it to get uniform without any violations. Then inflation stretched this uniformly incredible small patch the size that will later become the observable universe.

2. Flatness(in a Euclidean style) geometry problem of the universe:
Flatness in general relativity is related to its mass density Ω.
Ω = actual mass density / critical mass density(critical mass related to expansion rate).
Where Ω = 1 means flat geometry, Omega > 1 means closed geometry, Omega < 1 means open geometry.
If Ω > 1 the universe recollapses before there is any time for galaxies to form.
If Ω < 1 the universe’s density will go down too fast for galaxies to be able to have time to form.
Universe we live has an observed a density parameter Ω very close to 1(observations from Plank satelite).
The issue is the universe to be so close to critical density after 13.8 billion years of expansion, it must have been even closer at earlier stages, starting close to 1.
Inflation makes this problem go away with Ω going towards 1 exponentially fast. Therefore it could have begun(at start of inflation) at almost any value. This settles the issue why the Ω was close to 1 in the early stages of the universe.

3. Non-uniformity on small scale detected in the CBR. Inflation answers where this non-uniformities-ripples came from, mostly quantum effects/quantum fluctuation.
Inflationary models make a clear prediction for the spectrum of this fluctuations(how intensity varies with wavelength).
It also can be measured(WMAP data) and can compare the prediction with measurements.
Inflationary graph prediction matches perfectly with measurements while other models predictions do not.
Image


C: Inflation theory coupled with eternal inflation theory, string theory shows we can have our universe being determined by natural causes.
Christians might have to move God in the next hole.
Move the goal post again: God may have started the inflation process but not our pocket universe.
Q: Why bring positive evidence(like scientist try to do) and try to prove the God hypothesis when one can just forever make an argument from ignorance and God of gaps fallacy?
Again, if you want to discuss then you'll need to stop making such pleonastic posts, there are just too many points raised by your posts (note how nobody else ever seems to reply to you?)
More wining. More excuses. More avoidance.
Q: Why come here to debate if its too hard for you? Go play with toys.
Sorry but those are my terms, your posts are far too long, if that's the only way you can express yourself then we can't debate, most others here do not resort to these huge copy/paste posts.
The post here was not copy paste. Don't lie.
Well it should have been, it would have saved you a lot of time.

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alexxcJRO
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Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #65

Post by alexxcJRO »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:39 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:34 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:33 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:28 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:30 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:34 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:16 pm

What exactly did John Barrow say that leads you to say "if shown to be correct will make the hypothesis: God initiated Bing Bang go out the window"?
I said from what I seen from physicists like Alan Guth.

Big Bang Model: we have an initial state of a dense soup of particles that were uniformly spread in all space 13.8 billions of years ago, space that was expanding.
Scientist don’t really know that the universe really began with the Big Bang and whether or not anything came before. It its somewhat unknown.

We can’t really say that the universe began as in beginning of existence but just the beginning of our local universe as a result of the implication of inflation leading to a multiverse idea.

Big Bang model describes how the universe expanded and cooled. How helium, hydrogen and lithium formed. How matter got pulled, clumped together to form stars, galaxies and clusters of galaxies.
Big Bang model does not explain what caused the expansion(where all the matter-particles from initial soup came from), only describes the aftermath of the supposed “Bang”.
Similarly how evolutionary theory does not describe the origin of life but the diversification.

Big bang model is not a theory of the bang but a theory of the aftermath of a bang: the evolution of universe from a primordial soup.

Inflation comes as a way to answer this question: what caused the expansion and the “Bang”?
Inflation takes advantage of possibility within General Relativity when combined with modern particles theory of gravitation to there being a repulsive force at very high energies(to have energy densities and negative pressures producing gravitational fields as opposed to only mass densities and positive pressure producing normal gravity).

Inflation proposes that there was a patch of repulsive gravity material existing in the early universe, which after exponentially expanded, doubling in size at every ~10power-37seconds.
In 100 doublings it could get from a patch of 10power-28cm to a small marble size region. This is supposed to have happen in just 10power-35 seconds.
This repulsive gravity material because is unstable decayed and released energy (lead to the formation of the previously mention soup of particles. This marks the end of inflation and beginning of expansion).
In any location the probability of remaining in an inflation state decreases exponentially with time while the volume of any region in inflation also growing exponentially. In most models the growth rate is faster then the decay rate. Therefore there could be no end-> eternal inflation(forever into the future but not into the past).
Whenever a piece of this inflating region decays to a more normal state produces a pocket universe that locally looks like a Big Bang. This process would go add infinitum. Our universe may be one of such pocket universes in multiverse where we have many Bangs.

Observation: One important thing is the energy density of this repulsive gravity material does not decreased when the volume in which it resides increases. The conservation of energy is not broken because as the positive energy of repulsive gravity material increases the negative energy of the gravitational field that filled the region increased as well in a negative way making possible for the total energy of our universe(possible pocket universe) to be zero.

Inflation theory combined string theory also talk of:
->Dark energy being vacuum energy(energy of nothingness) – cosmological constant.
->5 billions of years ago matter thinned enough so dark energy= vacuum energy to take over and accelerate the expansion again.
->String theory may explain the very small vacuum energy we observe because there may be huge set of vacuum like states one of which may the one that filled our pocket universe. Eternal inflation will say we may have different pocket universes with different kinds of vacuum inside them which would be determined randomly as this pocket universes break of from inflating backbone. You would have different vacuums from the set, different laws of physics and different particles depending on pocket universe while having the same laws of strig theory everywhere in all pockets.

Evidence supporting inflation:
1. Large scale uniformity of the universe(possible pocket universe)->Cosmic Background Radiation(how the universe looked when it was 400.000 old).
To get this uniformity using the evolution equations in Big Bang Theory, matter and energy needs to be moved at about 100 times the speed of light which leads to the assumptions that the uniformity was there before the soup existed. This is what made room for inflation as an explanation. Before inflation the universe was incredibly small and this made possible(was enough time) for it to get uniform without any violations. Then inflation stretched this uniformly incredible small patch the size that will later become the observable universe.

2. Flatness(in a Euclidean style) geometry problem of the universe:
Flatness in general relativity is related to its mass density Ω.
Ω = actual mass density / critical mass density(critical mass related to expansion rate).
Where Ω = 1 means flat geometry, Omega > 1 means closed geometry, Omega < 1 means open geometry.
If Ω > 1 the universe recollapses before there is any time for galaxies to form.
If Ω < 1 the universe’s density will go down too fast for galaxies to be able to have time to form.
Universe we live has an observed a density parameter Ω very close to 1(observations from Plank satelite).
The issue is the universe to be so close to critical density after 13.8 billion years of expansion, it must have been even closer at earlier stages, starting close to 1.
Inflation makes this problem go away with Ω going towards 1 exponentially fast. Therefore it could have begun(at start of inflation) at almost any value. This settles the issue why the Ω was close to 1 in the early stages of the universe.

3. Non-uniformity on small scale detected in the CBR. Inflation answers where this non-uniformities-ripples came from, mostly quantum effects/quantum fluctuation.
Inflationary models make a clear prediction for the spectrum of this fluctuations(how intensity varies with wavelength).
It also can be measured(WMAP data) and can compare the prediction with measurements.
Inflationary graph prediction matches perfectly with measurements while other models predictions do not.
Image


C: Inflation theory coupled with eternal inflation theory, string theory shows we can have our universe being determined by natural causes.
Christians might have to move God in the next hole.
Move the goal post again: God may have started the inflation process but not our pocket universe.
Q: Why bring positive evidence(like scientist try to do) and try to prove the God hypothesis when one can just forever make an argument from ignorance and God of gaps fallacy?
Again, if you want to discuss then you'll need to stop making such pleonastic posts, there are just too many points raised by your posts (note how nobody else ever seems to reply to you?)
More wining. More excuses. More avoidance.
Q: Why come here to debate if its too hard for you? Go play with toys.
Sorry but those are my terms, your posts are far too long, if that's the only way you can express yourself then we can't debate, most others here do not resort to these huge copy/paste posts.
The post here was not copy paste. Don't lie.
Well it should have been, it would have saved you a lot of time.
Common sir. Its just one Microsoft Word text page.
I read recently The Stand from Stephen King > 1000 pages.
You are ridiculous.
Q: Why come here to debate if its too hard for you? Go play with toys.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #66

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:44 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:39 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:34 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:33 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:28 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:30 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:34 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:16 pm

What exactly did John Barrow say that leads you to say "if shown to be correct will make the hypothesis: God initiated Bing Bang go out the window"?
I said from what I seen from physicists like Alan Guth.

Big Bang Model: we have an initial state of a dense soup of particles that were uniformly spread in all space 13.8 billions of years ago, space that was expanding.
Scientist don’t really know that the universe really began with the Big Bang and whether or not anything came before. It its somewhat unknown.

We can’t really say that the universe began as in beginning of existence but just the beginning of our local universe as a result of the implication of inflation leading to a multiverse idea.

Big Bang model describes how the universe expanded and cooled. How helium, hydrogen and lithium formed. How matter got pulled, clumped together to form stars, galaxies and clusters of galaxies.
Big Bang model does not explain what caused the expansion(where all the matter-particles from initial soup came from), only describes the aftermath of the supposed “Bang”.
Similarly how evolutionary theory does not describe the origin of life but the diversification.

Big bang model is not a theory of the bang but a theory of the aftermath of a bang: the evolution of universe from a primordial soup.

Inflation comes as a way to answer this question: what caused the expansion and the “Bang”?
Inflation takes advantage of possibility within General Relativity when combined with modern particles theory of gravitation to there being a repulsive force at very high energies(to have energy densities and negative pressures producing gravitational fields as opposed to only mass densities and positive pressure producing normal gravity).

Inflation proposes that there was a patch of repulsive gravity material existing in the early universe, which after exponentially expanded, doubling in size at every ~10power-37seconds.
In 100 doublings it could get from a patch of 10power-28cm to a small marble size region. This is supposed to have happen in just 10power-35 seconds.
This repulsive gravity material because is unstable decayed and released energy (lead to the formation of the previously mention soup of particles. This marks the end of inflation and beginning of expansion).
In any location the probability of remaining in an inflation state decreases exponentially with time while the volume of any region in inflation also growing exponentially. In most models the growth rate is faster then the decay rate. Therefore there could be no end-> eternal inflation(forever into the future but not into the past).
Whenever a piece of this inflating region decays to a more normal state produces a pocket universe that locally looks like a Big Bang. This process would go add infinitum. Our universe may be one of such pocket universes in multiverse where we have many Bangs.

Observation: One important thing is the energy density of this repulsive gravity material does not decreased when the volume in which it resides increases. The conservation of energy is not broken because as the positive energy of repulsive gravity material increases the negative energy of the gravitational field that filled the region increased as well in a negative way making possible for the total energy of our universe(possible pocket universe) to be zero.

Inflation theory combined string theory also talk of:
->Dark energy being vacuum energy(energy of nothingness) – cosmological constant.
->5 billions of years ago matter thinned enough so dark energy= vacuum energy to take over and accelerate the expansion again.
->String theory may explain the very small vacuum energy we observe because there may be huge set of vacuum like states one of which may the one that filled our pocket universe. Eternal inflation will say we may have different pocket universes with different kinds of vacuum inside them which would be determined randomly as this pocket universes break of from inflating backbone. You would have different vacuums from the set, different laws of physics and different particles depending on pocket universe while having the same laws of strig theory everywhere in all pockets.

Evidence supporting inflation:
1. Large scale uniformity of the universe(possible pocket universe)->Cosmic Background Radiation(how the universe looked when it was 400.000 old).
To get this uniformity using the evolution equations in Big Bang Theory, matter and energy needs to be moved at about 100 times the speed of light which leads to the assumptions that the uniformity was there before the soup existed. This is what made room for inflation as an explanation. Before inflation the universe was incredibly small and this made possible(was enough time) for it to get uniform without any violations. Then inflation stretched this uniformly incredible small patch the size that will later become the observable universe.

2. Flatness(in a Euclidean style) geometry problem of the universe:
Flatness in general relativity is related to its mass density Ω.
Ω = actual mass density / critical mass density(critical mass related to expansion rate).
Where Ω = 1 means flat geometry, Omega > 1 means closed geometry, Omega < 1 means open geometry.
If Ω > 1 the universe recollapses before there is any time for galaxies to form.
If Ω < 1 the universe’s density will go down too fast for galaxies to be able to have time to form.
Universe we live has an observed a density parameter Ω very close to 1(observations from Plank satelite).
The issue is the universe to be so close to critical density after 13.8 billion years of expansion, it must have been even closer at earlier stages, starting close to 1.
Inflation makes this problem go away with Ω going towards 1 exponentially fast. Therefore it could have begun(at start of inflation) at almost any value. This settles the issue why the Ω was close to 1 in the early stages of the universe.

3. Non-uniformity on small scale detected in the CBR. Inflation answers where this non-uniformities-ripples came from, mostly quantum effects/quantum fluctuation.
Inflationary models make a clear prediction for the spectrum of this fluctuations(how intensity varies with wavelength).
It also can be measured(WMAP data) and can compare the prediction with measurements.
Inflationary graph prediction matches perfectly with measurements while other models predictions do not.
Image


C: Inflation theory coupled with eternal inflation theory, string theory shows we can have our universe being determined by natural causes.
Christians might have to move God in the next hole.
Move the goal post again: God may have started the inflation process but not our pocket universe.
Q: Why bring positive evidence(like scientist try to do) and try to prove the God hypothesis when one can just forever make an argument from ignorance and God of gaps fallacy?
Again, if you want to discuss then you'll need to stop making such pleonastic posts, there are just too many points raised by your posts (note how nobody else ever seems to reply to you?)
More wining. More excuses. More avoidance.
Q: Why come here to debate if its too hard for you? Go play with toys.
Sorry but those are my terms, your posts are far too long, if that's the only way you can express yourself then we can't debate, most others here do not resort to these huge copy/paste posts.
The post here was not copy paste. Don't lie.
Well it should have been, it would have saved you a lot of time.
Common sir. Its just one Microsoft Word text page.
I read recently The Stand from Stephen King > 1000 pages.
You are ridiculous.
Q: Why come here to debate if its too hard for you? Go play with toys.
Where did you copy the graph from? can you disclose your source?

User avatar
alexxcJRO
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Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #67

Post by alexxcJRO »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:47 am
Where did you copy the graph from? can you disclose your source?
From my folder on my PC where I have a collection of information on different topics: from religion to science and so one.
Q: Why does it matter?

Its not invented:
Image
"https://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Mar ... igure4.jpg"
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #68

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:50 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:47 am
Where did you copy the graph from? can you disclose your source?
From my folder on my PC where I have a collection of information on different topics: from religion to science and so one.
Q: Why does it matter?

Its not invented:
Image
"https://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Mar ... igure4.jpg"
Right so the image was copied and pasted and I am not a liar.

User avatar
alexxcJRO
Guru
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:54 am
Location: Cluj, Romania
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 215 times
Contact:

Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #69

Post by alexxcJRO »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:57 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:50 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:47 am
Where did you copy the graph from? can you disclose your source?
From my folder on my PC where I have a collection of information on different topics: from religion to science and so one.
Q: Why does it matter?

Its not invented:
Image
"https://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Mar ... igure4.jpg"
Right so the image was copied and pasted and I am not a liar.
You said: "these huge copy/paste posts."
Its not huge copy/paste but a short resume and a pic. Ergo liar.
Its laughfable that you want to debate this irrelevant topic instead of talking about inflation.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The Big Bang And The First Atom

Post #70

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:00 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:57 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:50 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:47 am
Where did you copy the graph from? can you disclose your source?
From my folder on my PC where I have a collection of information on different topics: from religion to science and so one.
Q: Why does it matter?

Its not invented:
Image
"https://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Mar ... igure4.jpg"
Right so the image was copied and pasted and I am not a liar.
You said: "these huge copy/paste posts."
Its not huge copy/paste but a short resume and a pic. Ergo liar.
Its laughfable that you want to debate this irrelevant topic instead of talking about inflation.
Then laugh, I simply refuse to spend the time needed to respond to your huge lengthy rambling.

Nobody responded to this post of yours, ever wonder why?

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