Those who consider the Bible inerrant and literally true focus their arguments on the claim the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and against evolution.
I suggest the focus would be more apt on the Biblical claim the Earth is flat. While the argument about evolution rages in these circles, there appears to be a reluctance in fundamentalist circles to accept the idea the Bible assumes the Earth is flat.
Questions for debate, "Does the Bible claim or assume the Earth is flat?"
... and
Why do fundamentalists focus on the creationism/young Earth debate, and ignore the issue of whether the Bible posits a flat Earth?
Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
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Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #81The Earth moves(spins) around its axis, around the sun and through the galaxy. Earth even wobble as it spins on axis. A rogue planet could possibly come through our solar system relocate the planet on a different orbit and even destroy it.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:47 am
Right so you agree we can't move the moon, therefore so far as we (people, those to whom God's words are addressed) are concerned the moon is indeed immovable, you also agree it is not stationary,
You agree then, the Bible is absolutely correct to say the earth is immovable and that does not conflict with reality.
Are we done now? this is pretty much trivial.
It is therefore not stationary, immovable, fixed. Is therefore possible it can be shaken.
The Bible says the Earth is stationary, immovable, fixed and can never be shaken. The Bible talks of a firmament that is a vast solid dome created by God on the second day of his creation of the world to divide the primal sea into upper and lower portions so that the dry land could appear..
Therefore the Bible conflicts with reality.
Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”
“6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”(Genesis 1:6)
“7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.”(Genesis 1:7)
“8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.”(Genesis 1:8)
“14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:”(Genesis 1:14)
“15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.”(Genesis 1:15)
“16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.”(Genesis 1:16)
“17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,”(Genesis 1:17)
“20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.” (Genesis 1:20)
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #82There is consensus among Biblical scholars, including Christians, that the Bible depicts a flat earth topped by a "firmament" or solid dome that separates the water below from the water above. One may legitimately dispute the significance of this description, but not the fact of it.
"Genesis 1 and 2 tell the story of creation, and it says things that are at odds with what modern people know to be true of the world and universe around us.
One of those issue concerns the second day of creation (Genesis 1:6-8), where God made the “expanse” or the “firmament.” The Hebrew word for this is raqia (pronounced ra-KEE-ah). Biblical scholars understand the raqia to be a solid dome-like structure. It separates the water into two parts, so that there is water above the raqia and water below it (v. 7). The waters above are kept at bay so the world can become inhabitable. On the third day (vv. 9-10), the water below the raqia is “gathered to one place” to form the sea and allow the dry land to appear."
https://biologos.org/articles/the-firma ... -the-point
This is not the claim of an anti-Christian conspiracy, but the “solid” result of reputable scholars.
Summary of the arguments of contemporary biblical scholars re: a solid dome and flat Earth described in the Bible:
"Genesis 1 and 2 tell the story of creation, and it says things that are at odds with what modern people know to be true of the world and universe around us.
One of those issue concerns the second day of creation (Genesis 1:6-8), where God made the “expanse” or the “firmament.” The Hebrew word for this is raqia (pronounced ra-KEE-ah). Biblical scholars understand the raqia to be a solid dome-like structure. It separates the water into two parts, so that there is water above the raqia and water below it (v. 7). The waters above are kept at bay so the world can become inhabitable. On the third day (vv. 9-10), the water below the raqia is “gathered to one place” to form the sea and allow the dry land to appear."
https://biologos.org/articles/the-firma ... -the-point
This is not the claim of an anti-Christian conspiracy, but the “solid” result of reputable scholars.
Summary of the arguments of contemporary biblical scholars re: a solid dome and flat Earth described in the Bible:
https://biologos.org/articles/the-firma ... -the-pointThe other cosmologies from the ancient world depict some solid structure in the sky. The most natural explanation of the raqia is that it also reflects this understanding. There is no indication that Genesis is a novel description of the sky;
Virtually every description of raqia from antiquity to the Renaissance depicts it as solid. The non-solid interpretation of raqia is a novelty;
According to the flood story in Gen 7:11 8:2, the waters above were held back only to be released through the “floodgates of the heavens” (literally, “lattice windows”);
Other Old Testament passages are consistent with the raqia being solid (Ezekiel 1:22; Job 37:18; Psalm 148:4);
According to Genesis 1:20, the birds fly in front of the raqia (in the air), not in the raqia;
The noun raqia is derived from the verb that means to beat out or stamp out, as in hammering metal into thin plates (Exodus 39:3). This suggests that the noun form is likewise related to something solid;
Speaking of the sky as being stretched out like a canopy/tent (Isaiah 40:22) or that it will roll up like a scroll (34:4) are clearly similes and do not support the view that raqia in Genesis 1 is non-solid.
The solid nature of the raqia is well established. It is not the result of an anti-Christian conspiracy to find errors in the Bible, but the “solid” result of scholars doing their job.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #83Sounds easy enough to me, you even suggested a way in your challenge, ancient Jewish people were familiar with the pomegranate: The Earth is shaped much like a pomegranate, every point of the surface of the Earth is equal distance to the centre.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:54 pm Yes, yes, yes, but can you describe the earth, as being a sphere, ball, fruit, whatever, you can't can you? go on do it, describe in words to a person in a culture 5,000 years in the past, who lives in a flat village near a river with a mountain nearby, that the earth is a ball, you cannot!
The challenge was described it in a way the ancients would understand, they would understand the above just fine. More to the point, the above is being offered as a substitute for the Biblical one, with the full weight of God's authority backing it, they would have accepted it as readily as they accepted the firmament.I mean, they would have stared blankly at you if you said that to them. A ball (if there even was one) is something that rolls on the ground, how can you say the ground is a ball? they'd laugh you out of the tent!
Globe Earth does not require any information or ideas that ancient people don't have access to, the simple observation that the mast is the first thing visible on a sailing boat as it approaches is enough.For them the ground is what gives a ball meaning, to suggest that the ground itself is also a ball would be almost incomprehensible to them, not because they were idiots but because there is a vast amount of information you have that they simply do not have.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #84[Replying to Bust Nak in post #83]
I can't improve on Bust Nak's excellent reply, but I want to join it.
Since it is clear the Bible pictures a flat Earth, the more prudent argument apologists make is a form of the old "strong backs-weak minds" argument that GOD just didn't have the intellect to be a good teacher for his dim audience, so he lied to them and told exactly the opposite of the truth, "because that's the only thing they could understand."
Of course this is ludicrous on its face for several reasons.
1. A true God, a creator of the universe, of existence itself, would certainly find a way to explain the truth without lying or making up an alternate version that doesn't fit the observable facts. A TRUE God would be creative and at least as smart as Pythagoras and Eratosthenes.
2. The 'flat Earth describing' Torah was written about the same time (circa 500 BCE)* as Greeks realized the Earth was a globe. It wasn't PROVED until about 240 BCE when Eratosthenes not only proved it, but found a way to measure its circumference (and he came pretty close).
https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnew ... istory.cfm
3. God could have supported 'his' round Earth description in much the way we would do it today.
Paraphrasing Job 38:
“Where were you when I set the globe of the Earth spinning in its place?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
If not, ask Eratosthenes.
6
On what is it suspended in space,
or who put it there like a pomegranate floating in the void,
7 You can read the signs for planting,
Yet you cannot go down to the sea and observe the Earth's roundness?"
_____________________
* I don't this bogged down in an argument about the date of the Torah, but I think we can agree on a couple things:
A. There was no great change in Jewish cosmology from whatever date you can support, until 500 BCE and beyond.
I can't improve on Bust Nak's excellent reply, but I want to join it.
Since it is clear the Bible pictures a flat Earth, the more prudent argument apologists make is a form of the old "strong backs-weak minds" argument that GOD just didn't have the intellect to be a good teacher for his dim audience, so he lied to them and told exactly the opposite of the truth, "because that's the only thing they could understand."
Of course this is ludicrous on its face for several reasons.
1. A true God, a creator of the universe, of existence itself, would certainly find a way to explain the truth without lying or making up an alternate version that doesn't fit the observable facts. A TRUE God would be creative and at least as smart as Pythagoras and Eratosthenes.
2. The 'flat Earth describing' Torah was written about the same time (circa 500 BCE)* as Greeks realized the Earth was a globe. It wasn't PROVED until about 240 BCE when Eratosthenes not only proved it, but found a way to measure its circumference (and he came pretty close).
https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnew ... istory.cfm
3. God could have supported 'his' round Earth description in much the way we would do it today.
Paraphrasing Job 38:
“Where were you when I set the globe of the Earth spinning in its place?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
If not, ask Eratosthenes.
6
On what is it suspended in space,
or who put it there like a pomegranate floating in the void,
7 You can read the signs for planting,
Yet you cannot go down to the sea and observe the Earth's roundness?"
_____________________
* I don't this bogged down in an argument about the date of the Torah, but I think we can agree on a couple things:
A. There was no great change in Jewish cosmology from whatever date you can support, until 500 BCE and beyond.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #85Although this is a widely held belief, it just isn't so.Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:53 amSounds easy enough to me, you even suggested a way in your challenge, ancient Jewish people were familiar with the pomegranate: The Earth is shaped much like a pomegranate, every point of the surface of the Earth is equal distance to the centre.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:54 pm Yes, yes, yes, but can you describe the earth, as being a sphere, ball, fruit, whatever, you can't can you? go on do it, describe in words to a person in a culture 5,000 years in the past, who lives in a flat village near a river with a mountain nearby, that the earth is a ball, you cannot!
-- SOLELY AS A POINT OF INFORMATION --
'The Earth is an irregularly shaped ellipsoid
.......................
While the Earth appears to be round when viewed from the vantage point of space, it is actually closer to an ellipsoid. However, even an ellipsoid does not adequately describe the Earth’s unique and ever-changing shape.
Our planet is pudgier at the equator than at the poles by about 70,000 feet. This is due to the centrifugal force created by the earth’s constant rotation. Mountains rising almost 30,000 feet and ocean trenches diving over 36,000 feet (compared to sea level) further distort the shape of the Earth. Sea level itself is even irregularly shaped. Slight variations in Earth’s gravity field cause permanent hills and valleys in the ocean’s surface of over 300 feet relative to an ellipsoid.
Additionally, the shape of the Earth is always changing. Sometimes this change is periodic, as is the case with daily tides that affect both the ocean and the crust; sometimes the change is slow and steady, as with the drift of tectonic plates or the rebound of the crust after a heavy sheet of ice has melted; and sometimes the shape of the planet changes in violent, episodic ways during events such as earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, or meteor strikes."
source
.......................
While the Earth appears to be round when viewed from the vantage point of space, it is actually closer to an ellipsoid. However, even an ellipsoid does not adequately describe the Earth’s unique and ever-changing shape.
Our planet is pudgier at the equator than at the poles by about 70,000 feet. This is due to the centrifugal force created by the earth’s constant rotation. Mountains rising almost 30,000 feet and ocean trenches diving over 36,000 feet (compared to sea level) further distort the shape of the Earth. Sea level itself is even irregularly shaped. Slight variations in Earth’s gravity field cause permanent hills and valleys in the ocean’s surface of over 300 feet relative to an ellipsoid.
Additionally, the shape of the Earth is always changing. Sometimes this change is periodic, as is the case with daily tides that affect both the ocean and the crust; sometimes the change is slow and steady, as with the drift of tectonic plates or the rebound of the crust after a heavy sheet of ice has melted; and sometimes the shape of the planet changes in violent, episodic ways during events such as earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, or meteor strikes."
source
An illustration of the variance in radius between Earth's poles and its equatorial region, which amounts to
20 Kilometers (12.43 miles)
.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #86[Replying to Miles in post #85]
Yes, technically the Earth is an oblate spheroid because of the effect of rotation, but this is HYPER technical because the Earth is within about .03% of being a perfect sphere.
https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-ear ... ct-sphere/
For comparison, this makes it rounder than a baseball, or at least more round than the standard for a baseball which is between 9 and 9.25 inches in circumference. [IF my math is correct, and that's no sure bet ]
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Baseball.html
... and if you want to get into a REAL argument, tell a baseball fan the ball isn't round.
Yes, technically the Earth is an oblate spheroid because of the effect of rotation, but this is HYPER technical because the Earth is within about .03% of being a perfect sphere.
https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-ear ... ct-sphere/
For comparison, this makes it rounder than a baseball, or at least more round than the standard for a baseball which is between 9 and 9.25 inches in circumference. [IF my math is correct, and that's no sure bet ]
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Baseball.html
... and if you want to get into a REAL argument, tell a baseball fan the ball isn't round.
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“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius