Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

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Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

Those who consider the Bible inerrant and literally true focus their arguments on the claim the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and against evolution.
I suggest the focus would be more apt on the Biblical claim the Earth is flat. While the argument about evolution rages in these circles, there appears to be a reluctance in fundamentalist circles to accept the idea the Bible assumes the Earth is flat.

Questions for debate, "Does the Bible claim or assume the Earth is flat?"
... and
Why do fundamentalists focus on the creationism/young Earth debate, and ignore the issue of whether the Bible posits a flat Earth?
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #51

Post by Diogenes »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:54 pm
Diogenes wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:13 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:38 am
Diogenes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:09 pm
Diogenes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:51 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:32 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #8]

I think its important to point out that how people see the world has varied over the centuries, every culture "sees" things in its own way and that we see things differently to how others saw them thousands of years ago doesn't matter.

How we see them, how each successive culture sees them is not reality, every description of reality we develop is artificial, lacking, inadequate.
Yes, but the point HERE is that the cosmology of Genesis is the product of the way MEN saw the universe, rather than how an omniscient 'god' described it.
How could God possibly describe it other than in terms that people of the time could comprehend?

Today we can't describe even with lots of abstruse mathematics, if God were to describe it what language would he use? English? Mathematics? perhaps something completely alien to us?
This is an old and sad stratagem of the apologist. Stated another way it claims 'god' has to lie and misrepresent the truth because his creatures are too lame to understand the truth. "Truth" is THE primary assertion made by the Bible in both old and new testaments. Under this pathetic excuse men are so pathetic god has to construct an elaborate lie because they are incapable of comprehending the naked truth.
Well I find this very interesting.

You use the phrase "misrepresent the truth" which implies there are actually ways to perfectly represent the truth, perhaps you can give an example of a scientific explanation that perfectly represents truth?
Easily. The Earth is a sphere that moves. It is not a perfect sphere, but technically an oblate spheroid.
https://gisgeography.com/ellipsoid-obla ... oid-earth/
Well that rather brief "truth" misses a great deal out.
You called for one example. Now you want a 12 vol. treatise? You called for a single statement of a scientific truth. I gave one and you have not pointed out why it is not a scientific statement. Instead you go on to say I have not discussed every natural phenomenon.
Cut to the chase, do agree with the Bible that the Earth is flat and the center of the universe?
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #52

Post by Purple Knight »

brunumb wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:17 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:10 pm If it's so easy to misinterpret the Bible, then it is not more useful than the Juice Loosener.
Amen to that. A corollary to that is the problem of determining what is the definitively correct interpretation. Based on the fact that there are countless different Christian sects based on Biblical interpretation the answer to that appears to be "the one I think is correct".
There are only two answers to this that I can see which don't make the concept of good a lottery of pick-the-winner. It could be one or some combination of both.

1) If you're trying, you're good. There may be people deliberately misinterpreting for their own gains. Those are different.

2) If you genuinely seek the answer, you'll get the correct one. This may be a highly personal thing. God may need Joe to think X is true and Jane to think that X is false.

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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #53

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:42 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:54 pm
Diogenes wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:13 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:38 am
Diogenes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:09 pm
Diogenes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:51 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:32 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #8]

I think its important to point out that how people see the world has varied over the centuries, every culture "sees" things in its own way and that we see things differently to how others saw them thousands of years ago doesn't matter.

How we see them, how each successive culture sees them is not reality, every description of reality we develop is artificial, lacking, inadequate.
Yes, but the point HERE is that the cosmology of Genesis is the product of the way MEN saw the universe, rather than how an omniscient 'god' described it.
How could God possibly describe it other than in terms that people of the time could comprehend?

Today we can't describe even with lots of abstruse mathematics, if God were to describe it what language would he use? English? Mathematics? perhaps something completely alien to us?
This is an old and sad stratagem of the apologist. Stated another way it claims 'god' has to lie and misrepresent the truth because his creatures are too lame to understand the truth. "Truth" is THE primary assertion made by the Bible in both old and new testaments. Under this pathetic excuse men are so pathetic god has to construct an elaborate lie because they are incapable of comprehending the naked truth.
Well I find this very interesting.

You use the phrase "misrepresent the truth" which implies there are actually ways to perfectly represent the truth, perhaps you can give an example of a scientific explanation that perfectly represents truth?
Easily. The Earth is a sphere that moves. It is not a perfect sphere, but technically an oblate spheroid.
https://gisgeography.com/ellipsoid-obla ... oid-earth/
Well that rather brief "truth" misses a great deal out.
You called for one example. Now you want a 12 vol. treatise? You called for a single statement of a scientific truth. I gave one and you have not pointed out why it is not a scientific statement. Instead you go on to say I have not discussed every natural phenomenon.
Cut to the chase, do agree with the Bible that the Earth is flat and the center of the universe?
The article says the Erath is not a perfect sphere, well can you define what a perfect sphere is so that we know what it means to say the earth is not one?

Remember you're writing for an audience some 4,000 years BC, you cannot glibly assume they share any of the many many things you take for granted.

"The world is a giant ball but it looks flat to you" - I mean, they would have stared blankly at you if you said that to them. A ball (if there even was one) is something that rolls on the ground, how can you say the ground is a ball? they'd laugh you out of the tent! For them the ground is what gives a ball meaning, to suggest that the ground itself is also a ball would be almost incomprehensible to them, not because they were idiots but because there is a vast amount of information you have that they simply do not have.

It is far better to write things in way that relates to what people see and know, the goal was never to convey scientific detail.

Lets indeed cut to the chase - you are unable to communicate in writing what you understand, you want the Bible to have written something in a way that is thorough, accurate, meaningful to 21st century readers but people six thousand years ago did not see things as you do, few of the concepts and ideas you routinely take for granted, were even part of their vocabulary. I was hoping this would teach you something but all it seems to achieve is anger and hostility from people.

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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #54

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 amThe article says the Erath is not a perfect sphere, well can you define what a perfect sphere is so that we know what it means to say the earth is not one?

Remember you're writing for an audience some 4,000 years BC, you cannot glibly assume they share any of the many many things you take for granted.
And God can't find just the right words to explain it? There's no combination of ancient Hebrew words that can describe a radius? The part that you're oddly taking for granted is that your omniscient and omnipotent deity can't somehow describe reality in a way that ancient, but anatomically modern humans would be able to grasp. Even if they weren't culturally modern, we have every reason to believe that they possessed the same intellectual faculties that we do. God told Noah how to build a wooden boat that survived for a year on a globe-spanning sea. A language sufficient to explain that level of engineering detail can't express "perfect sphere?"
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 am"The world is a giant ball but it looks flat to you" - I mean, they would have stared blankly at you if you said that to them. A ball (if there even was one) is something that rolls on the ground, how can you say the ground is a ball?
So, even though God is omnipotent, he couldn't produce something like a basketball for illustration?
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 amthey'd laugh you out of the tent!
And then they'd write the Bible the way they did, making stuff up and claiming God said it. Of course, that's also what they'd do if there were no gods and nobody tried to explain it in the first place. It's kind of hard to tell the difference.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 amLets indeed cut to the chase - you are unable to communicate in writing what you understand, you want the Bible to have written something in a way that is thorough, accurate, meaningful to 21st century readers but people six thousand years ago did not see things as you do, few of the concepts and ideas you routinely take for granted, were even part of their vocabulary.
The fact that introductory textbooks exist in fields rife with jargon shows that even humans can overcome the situation that you're claiming God faced when inspiring the Bible.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 amI was hoping this would teach you something but all it seems to achieve is anger and hostility from people.
Perhaps not what you imagined it would, but it does teach us things.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #55

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:45 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 amThe article says the Erath is not a perfect sphere, well can you define what a perfect sphere is so that we know what it means to say the earth is not one?

Remember you're writing for an audience some 4,000 years BC, you cannot glibly assume they share any of the many many things you take for granted.
And God can't find just the right words to explain it? There's no combination of ancient Hebrew words that can describe a radius? The part that you're oddly taking for granted is that your omniscient and omnipotent deity can't somehow describe reality in a way that ancient, but anatomically modern humans would be able to grasp. Even if they weren't culturally modern, we have every reason to believe that they possessed the same intellectual faculties that we do. God told Noah how to build a wooden boat that survived for a year on a globe-spanning sea. A language sufficient to explain that level of engineering detail can't express "perfect sphere?"
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 am"The world is a giant ball but it looks flat to you" - I mean, they would have stared blankly at you if you said that to them. A ball (if there even was one) is something that rolls on the ground, how can you say the ground is a ball?
So, even though God is omnipotent, he couldn't produce something like a basketball for illustration?
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 amthey'd laugh you out of the tent!
And then they'd write the Bible the way they did, making stuff up and claiming God said it. Of course, that's also what they'd do if there were no gods and nobody tried to explain it in the first place. It's kind of hard to tell the difference.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 amLets indeed cut to the chase - you are unable to communicate in writing what you understand, you want the Bible to have written something in a way that is thorough, accurate, meaningful to 21st century readers but people six thousand years ago did not see things as you do, few of the concepts and ideas you routinely take for granted, were even part of their vocabulary.
The fact that introductory textbooks exist in fields rife with jargon shows that even humans can overcome the situation that you're claiming God faced when inspiring the Bible.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:59 amI was hoping this would teach you something but all it seems to achieve is anger and hostility from people.
Perhaps not what you imagined it would, but it does teach us things.
I suspect the best way to convey the nature of the world is to make it scientifically explorable, make it governed by laws, let each person, each generation explore the world directly rather than using words and discover its nature.

Our perception of the earth is different to those thousands of years ago and in thousands of year that future perception will likely differ from ours today.

But the challenge still stands - it proves my point in fact - that descriptions of physical systems that are put into writing always lose something, no matter what you write it would always be incomplete, the original complaint about what the Bible says is thus, now, seen to be naive.

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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #56

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:00 pmI suspect the best way to convey the nature of the world is to make it scientifically explorable, make it governed by laws, let each person, each generation explore the world directly rather than using words and discover its nature.

Our perception of the earth is different to those thousands of years ago and in thousands of year that future perception will likely differ from ours today.
That still doesn't sufficiently explain why parts of the biblical description are wrong, or at least so inexpert as to have been misleading for millenia. You may not know this, but there are still people that actively reject science because of the way that the Bible was worded. If God were responsible, I would have expected a literary wink to the reader as a clue that what's presented is metaphorical, or at least misleadingly simplified. That is, if we postulate that God wasn't intentionally being misleading, anyway.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:00 pmBut the challenge still stands - it proves my point in fact - that descriptions of physical systems that are put into writing always lose something, no matter what you write it would always be incomplete, the original complaint about what the Bible says is thus, now, seen to be naive.
When humans do so, anyway. Would you contend that God also suffers from that limitation? That would be a rather direct corollary to your claim, at least as you've worded it.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #57

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:35 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:00 pmI suspect the best way to convey the nature of the world is to make it scientifically explorable, make it governed by laws, let each person, each generation explore the world directly rather than using words and discover its nature.

Our perception of the earth is different to those thousands of years ago and in thousands of year that future perception will likely differ from ours today.
That still doesn't sufficiently explain why parts of the biblical description are wrong, or at least so inexpert as to have been misleading for millenia.
Yes you say that but I've asked several people to suggest improvements and they can't or they suggest improvements that arguably make it worse. So you'd have a point if you could demonstrate that it could actually have been written "better" but nobody has so far, go on, your turn, take a passage and rephrase it for me.
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:35 pm You may not know this, but there are still people that actively reject science because of the way that the Bible was worded.
That could well be true, so what? as I've said repeatedly almost all seminal contributors to the scientific revolution were creationist Christians, deeply familiar with the Bible, if there was any merit to what you say then we'd never have had a scientific revolution!
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:35 pm If God were responsible, I would have expected a literary wink to the reader as a clue that what's presented is metaphorical, or at least misleadingly simplified. That is, if we postulate that God wasn't intentionally being misleading, anyway.
That all depends on why the Bible was made to exist, what was the reason for it existing, if it was to inform mankind about the nature of the material world then I'd agree, but what if it has a different purpose altogether?
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:35 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:00 pmBut the challenge still stands - it proves my point in fact - that descriptions of physical systems that are put into writing always lose something, no matter what you write it would always be incomplete, the original complaint about what the Bible says is thus, now, seen to be naive.
When humans do so, anyway. Would you contend that God also suffers from that limitation? That would be a rather direct corollary to your claim, at least as you've worded it.
Its' not God that's limited, its us, could you really read a book that had an infinite number of pages?

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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #58

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:58 pm
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:35 pm That still doesn't sufficiently explain why parts of the biblical description are wrong, or at least so inexpert as to have been misleading for millenia.
Yes you say that but I've asked several people to suggest improvements and they can't or they suggest improvements that arguably make it worse. So you'd have a point if you could demonstrate that it could actually have been written "better" but nobody has so far, go on, your turn, take a passage and rephrase it for me.
Since you're still trying to tie success to the efforts of a fallible human being, I'd say that you would have a point if you weren't positing an unlimited deity, but even so, it doesn't matter. There are existing books that have done so:
Could we view the earth in its entirety from some extraterrestrial vantage point, we would recognize it as an oblate spheroid, that is, a body approaching that of a sphere, but with its polar diameter flattened and its equatorial belt somewhat inflated. By measurement the polar diameter of the earth is found to be 7899.7 miles, while the equatorial diameter is 7926.5 miles. If the observer in extraterrestrial space is sufficiently removed from the earth's surface, that surface would appear essentially smooth, as does the surface of the moon to our unaided eyes; the irregularities which the dweller on the earth recognizes as mountains and valleys would become of insignificant proportions. Were we to represent the earth by an accurately scaled model 10 feet in polar diameter, the equatorial diameter would exceed the polar by only a trifle over 4/10 of an inch, while the highest mountains on the earth's surface would form elevations on the model less than 3/32 inch in height. Thus viewed, the prominences which appear to us formidable are after all of minor significance, and bearing this in mind, we can understand that relatively slight bulgings or crumplings of the earth's surface may produce what to us appear as great elevation.
Which of these concepts do you think would lack an understandable analog?

You also sidestepped the issue of the parts that are simply wrong, like the "firmament" or the "fountains of the deep."
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:58 pm
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:35 pm You may not know this, but there are still people that actively reject science because of the way that the Bible was worded.
That could well be true, so what? as I've said repeatedly almost all seminal contributors to the scientific revolution were creationist Christians, deeply familiar with the Bible, if there was any merit to what you say then we'd never have had a scientific revolution!
No, if there were merit to what I say, a scientific revolution wouldn't be required, because God would have guided them along the correct path in the first place.
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:35 pm If God were responsible, I would have expected a literary wink to the reader as a clue that what's presented is metaphorical, or at least misleadingly simplified. That is, if we postulate that God wasn't intentionally being misleading, anyway.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:58 pmThat all depends on why the Bible was made to exist, what was the reason for it existing, if it was to inform mankind about the nature of the material world then I'd agree, but what if it has a different purpose altogether?
What goal would omit the wink aside from misleading creationists? You are still arguing as though your deity were limited in either foresight or options. The outcome that we see must necessarily have been the goal.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:58 pmIts' not God that's limited, its us, could you really read a book that had an infinite number of pages?
Is God's limitation that He requires more than one to explain an oblate spheroid?
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #59

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:35 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:27 am
Diogenes wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:26 pm Those who consider the Bible inerrant and literally true focus their arguments on the claim the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and against evolution.
I suggest the focus would be more apt on the Biblical claim the Earth is flat. While the argument about evolution rages in these circles, there appears to be a reluctance in fundamentalist circles to accept the idea the Bible assumes the Earth is flat.

Questions for debate, "Does the Bible claim or assume the Earth is flat?"
... and
Why do fundamentalists focus on the creationism/young Earth debate, and ignore the issue of whether the Bible posits a flat Earth?
I'm not aware that scripture states "the earth is flat" but willing to consider any counter arguments, here's a short answer William Craig wrote to this question.

What we call "The Bible" is knowledge that's pertinent for salvation not scientific inquiry, it presents knowledge that's relevant to salvation, the geometry of the earth, the speed of sound, etc are not relevant to that aim so even if it did say such a thing it wouldn't matter, its purpose is not to teach us material knowledge but spiritual.
No, there is no scripture I'm aware of that states that conclusion so concisely. The writers operated on the assumption it's flatness was obvious. See the verses I mentioned in my response to Otseng . Better, read the entire argument posted at https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm No point in me re-inventing the wheel when Schadewald has set it out so clearly. But I'll steal one quote from him.
The Vault of Heaven

The vault of heaven is a crucial concept. The word “firmament” appears in the King James version of the Old Testament 17 times, and in each case it is translated from the Hebrew word raqiya, which meant the visible vault of the sky. The word raqiya comes from riqqua, meaning “beaten out.” In ancient times, brass objects were either cast in the form required or beaten into shape on an anvil. A good craftsman could beat a lump of cast brass into a thin bowl. Thus, Elihu asks Job, “Can you beat out [raqa] the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal (Job 37:18)?”

Elihu's question shows that the Hebrews considered the vault of heaven a solid, physical object. Such a large dome would be a tremendous feat of engineering. The Hebrews (and supposedly Yahweh Himself) considered it exactly that, and this point is hammered home by five scriptures:

Job 9:8, “...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]...”

Psalm 19:1, “The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork.”

Psalm 102:25, “...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork.”

Isaiah 45:12, “I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine...”

Isaiah 48:13, “...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky [shamayim]...”
I read the article.

He speaks of references to the earth being "immovable" the Hebrew seems to say that too "shall not be moved". Well seriously? "immovable" does not mean "stationary" does it? Is there anything any of us could do to adjust the earth's position in space?

Frankly the article is superficial, yes one could say that some of scripture wouldn't be too impacted if the earth really was flat, a disk. But that doesn't equate to it saying the earth is flat.

Maybe this will help:


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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?

Post #60

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:48 pm Maybe this will help:

Whether it helps your point or not, The Day the Universe Changed and Connections are two of the best TV shows ever.
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