Those who consider the Bible inerrant and literally true focus their arguments on the claim the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and against evolution.
I suggest the focus would be more apt on the Biblical claim the Earth is flat. While the argument about evolution rages in these circles, there appears to be a reluctance in fundamentalist circles to accept the idea the Bible assumes the Earth is flat.
Questions for debate, "Does the Bible claim or assume the Earth is flat?"
... and
Why do fundamentalists focus on the creationism/young Earth debate, and ignore the issue of whether the Bible posits a flat Earth?
Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
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Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #41[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #40]
You may have better luck in another section of the forum where you're less likely to be called out on science related issues by people who do make a living in the field and do understand their subject areas far better than you do, and that can't be fooled by weak arguments backed up by nothing but personal opinion. Random Ramblings or Holy Huddle Room might be good choices, for example.
Or a signal that people are growing tired of your juvenile tactics and insults, bragging about yourself for no justifiable reason, etc. You've adequately demonstrated that you don't understand science or its publication processes enough to debate the subject on any level.Furthermore, other than your good self, the silence from the supposedly erudite atheists is deafening.
You may have better luck in another section of the forum where you're less likely to be called out on science related issues by people who do make a living in the field and do understand their subject areas far better than you do, and that can't be fooled by weak arguments backed up by nothing but personal opinion. Random Ramblings or Holy Huddle Room might be good choices, for example.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
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John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #42Yes, yes, yes, but how would you describe in writing that the earth was a globe, to a society 5,000 years ago? by all means focus on me, but the fact remains nobody seems able to do it!DrNoGods wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:44 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #40]
Or a signal that people are growing tired of your juvenile tactics and insults, bragging about yourself for no justifiable reason, etc. You've adequately demonstrated that you don't understand science or its publication processes enough to debate the subject on any level.Furthermore, other than your good self, the silence from the supposedly erudite atheists is deafening.
You may have better luck in another section of the forum where you're less likely to be called out on science related issues by people who do make a living in the field and do understand their subject areas far better than you do, and that can't be fooled by weak arguments backed up by nothing but personal opinion. Random Ramblings or Holy Huddle Room might be good choices, for example.
The thesis is (see the OP) that the Bible says/implies that the earth is flat, which by implication means it could have described the earth better, well? go on then, describe it better if you can. We've seen one brave but unsatisfactory attempt, so your turn...
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #43Holy Zeus Batman! That's your argument? Too funny. Why not take a look at an apple and compare the earth with that? I can't believe you actually said that with any degree of seriousness. Gobsmacked!Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:24 pm The earth is not remotely "giant", take a look at Jupiter or Saturn (the gas giants) nor does it "hang" (you'd have had Galileo in stitches with that one) nor does any legitimate scientific theory invoke "nothing" as an explanatory mechanism of mechanical support.
I'm thinking that they consider your level of debating well beneath them. As for me, I'm not too proud to slum it on occasion.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:24 pm Furthermore, other than your good self, the silence from the supposedly erudite atheists is deafening.
Is that Sherlock Holmes speaking or Dunning Kruger? Of course you've just nailed it. That explains everything.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:24 pm Face it, I - a creationist - am running rings around you, and why? because despite the incessant bleating about science, logic and so on, it is clear you are out of your league, I a creationist know more than you about this discipline.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #44[Replying to brunumb in post #43]
It is pointless to debate what the bible texts may say about the geometry of the Earth and whether they declared it was "flat", because it is irrelevant to the modern world where we can measure the Earth's geometrical properties in incredible detail.
Indeed. May as well compare Jupiter to the Sun, or the Sun with Betelgeuse. The biblical authors (whoever they were) had no concept of solar systems, what stars actually were or how far away they were, etc. and they existed long before microscopes or telescopes were developed. So their knowledge of microorganisms, galaxies, the scale of planets, or anything else their eyeballs could not resolve was nonexistent.Why not take a look at an apple and compare the earth with that? I can't believe you actually said that with any degree of seriousness.
It is pointless to debate what the bible texts may say about the geometry of the Earth and whether they declared it was "flat", because it is irrelevant to the modern world where we can measure the Earth's geometrical properties in incredible detail.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #45Sir the ancient people believe in a flat Earth. The ancient goat herders that wrote the Old Testament were no more special. They were as ignorant as the rest.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:51 pm How does "the earth is flat" (which I hasten to add, does not appear in my Bible)…
The thesis is (see the OP) that the Bible says/implies that the earth is flat,…
“Ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians portrayed the Earth as a disk floating in the ocean.”
“The Israelites imagined the Earth as a disc floating on water with an arched firmament above it that separated the Earth from the heavens.”
“In biblical cosmology, the firmament is the vast solid dome created by God on the second day of his creation of the world to divide the primal sea into upper and lower portions so that the dry land could appear.[1][2] The concept was adopted into the subsequent Classical/Medieval model of heavenly spheres, but was dropped with advances in astronomy in the 16th and 17th centuries. Today it survives as a synonym for "sky" or "heaven".”
“Both Homer and Hesiod described a disc cosmography on the Shield of Achilles with the encircling ocean.”
“Pre-Socratic philosophers believed that the world was flat: Thales, Leucippus, Democritus. “
The Epicurians were flat earthers.
We have followers of the Antiochene school believing that the earth and sky had a kind of “tabernacle” shape, based largely on their reading of scriptures.
“Orlando Ferguson’ map depicts a "square and stationary" Earth, based on his literal interpretation of the Bible, which references angels visiting the "four corners" of the world. “
Flat Earthers today use the Bible as evidence for their delusions.
http://library.tfes.org/library/the_fla ... bible.html
https://www.cantab.net/users/michael.be ... dix_C.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Ferguson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament ... e%20waters.”
https://paradiseandperdition.weebly.com ... brew-world
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #46Good idea, I'd love to see that, so can you write it up so I can see? People are complaining that the Bible could have described the world better (more "accurately") than it does, so go on, how would you like it to have been written?brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:42 pmHoly Zeus Batman! That's your argument? Too funny. Why not take a look at an apple and compare the earth with that? I can't believe you actually said that with any degree of seriousness. Gobsmacked!Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:24 pm The earth is not remotely "giant", take a look at Jupiter or Saturn (the gas giants) nor does it "hang" (you'd have had Galileo in stitches with that one) nor does any legitimate scientific theory invoke "nothing" as an explanatory mechanism of mechanical support.
Fact is you cannot and neither can any other person here, that proves that it is not a trivial as you imply, you have no idea how to do this!
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #47Right. The Bible can't beat you over the head with itself. It can't be mean or aggressive or nasty to you. (The writers theoretically can but they're long dead so this should be taken very lightly.)Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:10 pmI understand. Unlike a human relationship the Bible is passive, you pick it up and read or you don't, you put it back on the shelf or you leave it on the table in full view perhaps to be read again tomorrow, it is there for you to consider or not, tomorrow next year, it matters not, you are free to do as you please.
My point was about the uselessness point.
Maybe the Juice Loosener is actually really great. Maybe I simply lack the physical strength to use it. The point is, I cannot get any juice out and I have to go from there.
If it's so easy to misinterpret the Bible, then it is not more useful than the Juice Loosener. Whose fault that is, is beside the point.
Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #48I see, I understand!Purple Knight wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:10 pmRight. The Bible can't beat you over the head with itself. It can't be mean or aggressive or nasty to you. (The writers theoretically can but they're long dead so this should be taken very lightly.)Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:10 pmI understand. Unlike a human relationship the Bible is passive, you pick it up and read or you don't, you put it back on the shelf or you leave it on the table in full view perhaps to be read again tomorrow, it is there for you to consider or not, tomorrow next year, it matters not, you are free to do as you please.
My point was about the uselessness point.
Maybe the Juice Loosener is actually really great. Maybe I simply lack the physical strength to use it. The point is, I cannot get any juice out and I have to go from there.
If it's so easy to misinterpret the Bible, then it is not more useful than the Juice Loosener. Whose fault that is, is beside the point.
It's actually amazing, the subject itself is amazing.
A couple of years ago I decided to listen to the Bible for the first time, I was able to lie in bed and listen at night, this is the book I listened to and this is the reader who's voice I found interesting.
I'd barely really ever read that book, but when I listened I was amazed at how thought provoking it was, many of things it said I'd never imagined I'd hear/read in the Bible, perhaps that was the time and place and manner for me to hear those words, who knows.
It was as if the book had never existed and had been written specifically for me, I now find that listening is more powerful, I often feel as if God has written these words specifically for me, it feels like a message being delivered to me personally.
You might find listening to this book relevant, the entire issue of utility, purpose is what the books is about.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #49Amen to that. A corollary to that is the problem of determining what is the definitively correct interpretation. Based on the fact that there are countless different Christian sects based on Biblical interpretation the answer to that appears to be "the one I think is correct".Purple Knight wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:10 pm If it's so easy to misinterpret the Bible, then it is not more useful than the Juice Loosener.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #50Right so why worry so much about that? I no longer do, I listen or read sometimes and don't try to compartmentalize everything, don't worry much about "interpreting" it.brunumb wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:17 pmAmen to that. A corollary to that is the problem of determining what is the definitively correct interpretation. Based on the fact that there are countless different Christian sects based on Biblical interpretation the answer to that appears to be "the one I think is correct".Purple Knight wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:10 pm If it's so easy to misinterpret the Bible, then it is not more useful than the Juice Loosener.
Does one "interpret" a hug from a child? does one "interpret" sitting quietly with one's pet dog for an hour? does one "interpret" the sensation of a warm sunny afternoon listening to the birds?
My view these days is that the text is simply intended to have some effect on me, provoke some thoughts, that is the power of the word of God, it can induce a perception of things, ways of seeing things, and that is different for each one of us.
I think it is a mistake to treat it as some objective textual reference book that we are to internalize and create sets of rules and regulations for.
If I read something that puzzles me (and it does often) then I don't care, I certainly don't worry, I am confident that the puzzle will resolve in some way at some time of God's choosing; I'm very comfortable with something being unresolved in my mind, very comfortable indeed.
An example of this is this well known passage (emphasis mine)
For years I also asked myself "what does this mean?".When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
Then it dawned on me recently that it has a spiritual meaning the physical demonstration has deep spiritual significance, the "language" represents our own personal means of perceiving the world, "listening" to the world. So for me that "language" is mathematics, physics, that kind of structure, but for a composer its music, sound, for a painter its imagery, colors and so on. Each one of has some insight that reveals God and that differs for each of us.
This is what I think the passage means, am I right? I don't know, does it matter? I don't think it does, perhaps the passage is intended to mean different things to different people, all part of the profound mystery.