Those who consider the Bible inerrant and literally true focus their arguments on the claim the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and against evolution.
I suggest the focus would be more apt on the Biblical claim the Earth is flat. While the argument about evolution rages in these circles, there appears to be a reluctance in fundamentalist circles to accept the idea the Bible assumes the Earth is flat.
Questions for debate, "Does the Bible claim or assume the Earth is flat?"
... and
Why do fundamentalists focus on the creationism/young Earth debate, and ignore the issue of whether the Bible posits a flat Earth?
Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
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Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #2Like most people I have laughed at and dismissed the idea the Earth is flat, thinking no one takes these people seriously. What I did not realize is that the impetus of flat Earth thinking comes principally from those who take the Bible literally. A 19th Century advocate, Samuel Birely Rowbotham said,
"If the Earth is a globe, you can throw out your Bible."
https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/litehous.htm
"If the Earth is a globe, you can throw out your Bible."
https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/litehous.htm
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #3It does and knowing the babylonian cosmos puts it all into place - a circular flat earth, ringed with mountains (the sluices of the deep inset) with waters above and below. I found that the 'circle of the earth' refers to a flat circle (chwug) as if inscribed by a compass (meshuggah, or some similar word) and if a sphere was means 'dur' (a ball) would have been used.
That said it was not since the 17th c a Church dogma that the earth was flat and Religion is not to be blamed for flat earthism. That came from a cult started by one single person. Rather likem scientology or, come to think of it, many other religions.
The story of Flat Earthism is interesting, not least because it is was not a religious Dogma. Pretty much, the later Greco -Roman world knew that the world was round (Eratosthenes calculated the circumference pretty well) though a lot still thought in terms of a sky dome over a flat circle and that persisted for a long while, but I recall that it was Aquinas who accepted a round earth but insisted that nobody could live on the underneath as they'd drop off.
But point is that, while the church was struggling with the Solarcentric system, they accepted that the earth was round. It was never a Church dogma that started off the Flat earthism cult. It was this guy 'Parallax' on his own that decided (for physics reasons) to reject a round earth and he worked hard at proving this and it was rather hard to prove the earth was round. After all, it Looked flat and you had to interpret finicky observations to show it was curved. In the end 'Parallax' used Genesis to back up his flat earth beliefs and then it became religious Dogma and the thing took off, especially in the US where (I read) around the 1920's there was a town founded with the municipal dogma of a flat earth.
In my younger days, flat earthism was quite a Thing, but with the space race it required a high degree of denial to say the earth wasn't round. I can only suppose that Creationist -fundamentalism and a whole new level of science -denial (plus the opportunities of the Internet for crackpots to post their lunacies) has enabled Flat earthism to become a Thing again. It requires dismissal of all space photos and even high flying jets to maintain a belief in a flat earth. It is a familiar combination of 'how does science explain this?' with elaborate models to make a flat earth fit the data.
That said it was not since the 17th c a Church dogma that the earth was flat and Religion is not to be blamed for flat earthism. That came from a cult started by one single person. Rather likem scientology or, come to think of it, many other religions.
The story of Flat Earthism is interesting, not least because it is was not a religious Dogma. Pretty much, the later Greco -Roman world knew that the world was round (Eratosthenes calculated the circumference pretty well) though a lot still thought in terms of a sky dome over a flat circle and that persisted for a long while, but I recall that it was Aquinas who accepted a round earth but insisted that nobody could live on the underneath as they'd drop off.
But point is that, while the church was struggling with the Solarcentric system, they accepted that the earth was round. It was never a Church dogma that started off the Flat earthism cult. It was this guy 'Parallax' on his own that decided (for physics reasons) to reject a round earth and he worked hard at proving this and it was rather hard to prove the earth was round. After all, it Looked flat and you had to interpret finicky observations to show it was curved. In the end 'Parallax' used Genesis to back up his flat earth beliefs and then it became religious Dogma and the thing took off, especially in the US where (I read) around the 1920's there was a town founded with the municipal dogma of a flat earth.
In my younger days, flat earthism was quite a Thing, but with the space race it required a high degree of denial to say the earth wasn't round. I can only suppose that Creationist -fundamentalism and a whole new level of science -denial (plus the opportunities of the Internet for crackpots to post their lunacies) has enabled Flat earthism to become a Thing again. It requires dismissal of all space photos and even high flying jets to maintain a belief in a flat earth. It is a familiar combination of 'how does science explain this?' with elaborate models to make a flat earth fit the data.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #4I'm not sure whether that 'Red Bull' sky dive in a space suit (pretty much) shows the round earth or that's just the limits of the camera, but this is a diverting talk on the case for Flat earthism as it was in my young day.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #5Don't really have time to engage in another thread and want to focus on the How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant? thread. But, the entire notion of a flat earth and using it to mock the Bible is based on a myth.
It is another spurious argument against the credibility of the Bible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_EarthThe myth of the flat Earth, or the flat earth error, is a modern historical misconception that European scholars and educated people during the Middle Ages believed the Earth to be flat.
It is another spurious argument against the credibility of the Bible.
Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #6I'm not aware that scripture states "the earth is flat" but willing to consider any counter arguments, here's a short answer William Craig wrote to this question.Diogenes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:26 pm Those who consider the Bible inerrant and literally true focus their arguments on the claim the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and against evolution.
I suggest the focus would be more apt on the Biblical claim the Earth is flat. While the argument about evolution rages in these circles, there appears to be a reluctance in fundamentalist circles to accept the idea the Bible assumes the Earth is flat.
Questions for debate, "Does the Bible claim or assume the Earth is flat?"
... and
Why do fundamentalists focus on the creationism/young Earth debate, and ignore the issue of whether the Bible posits a flat Earth?
What we call "The Bible" is knowledge that's pertinent for salvation not scientific inquiry, it presents knowledge that's relevant to salvation, the geometry of the earth, the speed of sound, etc are not relevant to that aim so even if it did say such a thing it wouldn't matter, its purpose is not to teach us material knowledge but spiritual.
Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #7It's interesting too to reflect on:TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:42 am It does and knowing the babylonian cosmos puts it all into place - a circular flat earth, ringed with mountains (the sluices of the deep inset) with waters above and below. I found that the 'circle of the earth' refers to a flat circle (chwug) as if inscribed by a compass (meshuggah, or some similar word) and if a sphere was means 'dur' (a ball) would have been used.
That said it was not since the 17th c a Church dogma that the earth was flat and Religion is not to be blamed for flat earthism. That came from a cult started by one single person. Rather likem scientology or, come to think of it, many other religions.
The story of Flat Earthism is interesting, not least because it is was not a religious Dogma. Pretty much, the later Greco -Roman world knew that the world was round (Eratosthenes calculated the circumference pretty well) though a lot still thought in terms of a sky dome over a flat circle and that persisted for a long while, but I recall that it was Aquinas who accepted a round earth but insisted that nobody could live on the underneath as they'd drop off.
But point is that, while the church was struggling with the Solarcentric system, they accepted that the earth was round. It was never a Church dogma that started off the Flat earthism cult. It was this guy 'Parallax' on his own that decided (for physics reasons) to reject a round earth and he worked hard at proving this and it was rather hard to prove the earth was round. After all, it Looked flat and you had to interpret finicky observations to show it was curved. In the end 'Parallax' used Genesis to back up his flat earth beliefs and then it became religious Dogma and the thing took off, especially in the US where (I read) around the 1920's there was a town founded with the municipal dogma of a flat earth.
In my younger days, flat earthism was quite a Thing, but with the space race it required a high degree of denial to say the earth wasn't round. I can only suppose that Creationist -fundamentalism and a whole new level of science -denial (plus the opportunities of the Internet for crackpots to post their lunacies) has enabled Flat earthism to become a Thing again. It requires dismissal of all space photos and even high flying jets to maintain a belief in a flat earth. It is a familiar combination of 'how does science explain this?' with elaborate models to make a flat earth fit the data.
1. "Can you believe that many people even into the 19th century, really believed the earth was flat!"
2. "Can you believe that many people even into the 20th century, really believed that space was flat!"
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #8You are half right in the sense that Flat Earthers got their start (or restart) in the 19th Century by a character named Samuel Rowbotham. See https://www.workman.com/products/off-the-edge/hardbackotseng wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:39 am Don't really have time to engage in another thread and want to focus on the How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant? thread. But, the entire notion of a flat earth and using it to mock the Bible is based on a myth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_EarthThe myth of the flat Earth, or the flat earth error, is a modern historical misconception that European scholars and educated people during the Middle Ages believed the Earth to be flat.
It is another spurious argument against the credibility of the Bible.
BTW, I would have posted this tin your 'trust the Bible' thread, but I didnt know if it was strictly relevant despite the fact the thread has become about inherancy rather than trusting the Bible. Anyway...
But the Bible was written by men who clearly believed in a geo centric universe with an immovable flat Earth, covered by a celestial dome.
Just a few of many verses make the case:
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”
and
"Elihu's question shows that the Hebrews considered the vault of heaven a solid, physical object. Such a large dome would be a tremendous feat of engineering. The Hebrews (and supposedly Yahweh Himself) considered it exactly that, and this point is hammered home by five scriptures:
Job 9:8, “...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]...”
Psalm 19:1, “The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork.”
Psalm 102:25, “...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork.”
Isaiah 45:12, “I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine...”
These for collected at https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm
where the author makes a solid case for the Bible authors belief the Earth is flat. He also deals with the absurd argument about the out of context verse about Job sitting on the circle of the Earth.
It is true that for at least 2500 years men have known the Earth is a sphere. Well.. at least the Greeks did. Both Pythagoras and Eratosthenes made careful measurements to show the size of the Earth, not just its spherical shape. This knowledge of course clearly predates Columbus.
___________________________________
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #9[Replying to Diogenes in post #8]
I think its important to point out that how people see the world has varied over the centuries, every culture "sees" things in its own way and that we see things differently to how others saw them thousands of years ago doesn't matter.
How we see them, how each successive culture sees them is not reality, every description of reality we develop is artificial, lacking, inadequate.
I think its important to point out that how people see the world has varied over the centuries, every culture "sees" things in its own way and that we see things differently to how others saw them thousands of years ago doesn't matter.
How we see them, how each successive culture sees them is not reality, every description of reality we develop is artificial, lacking, inadequate.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #10No, there is no scripture I'm aware of that states that conclusion so concisely. The writers operated on the assumption it's flatness was obvious. See the verses I mentioned in my response to Otseng . Better, read the entire argument posted at https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm No point in me re-inventing the wheel when Schadewald has set it out so clearly. But I'll steal one quote from him.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:27 amI'm not aware that scripture states "the earth is flat" but willing to consider any counter arguments, here's a short answer William Craig wrote to this question.Diogenes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:26 pm Those who consider the Bible inerrant and literally true focus their arguments on the claim the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and against evolution.
I suggest the focus would be more apt on the Biblical claim the Earth is flat. While the argument about evolution rages in these circles, there appears to be a reluctance in fundamentalist circles to accept the idea the Bible assumes the Earth is flat.
Questions for debate, "Does the Bible claim or assume the Earth is flat?"
... and
Why do fundamentalists focus on the creationism/young Earth debate, and ignore the issue of whether the Bible posits a flat Earth?
What we call "The Bible" is knowledge that's pertinent for salvation not scientific inquiry, it presents knowledge that's relevant to salvation, the geometry of the earth, the speed of sound, etc are not relevant to that aim so even if it did say such a thing it wouldn't matter, its purpose is not to teach us material knowledge but spiritual.
The Vault of Heaven
The vault of heaven is a crucial concept. The word “firmament” appears in the King James version of the Old Testament 17 times, and in each case it is translated from the Hebrew word raqiya, which meant the visible vault of the sky. The word raqiya comes from riqqua, meaning “beaten out.” In ancient times, brass objects were either cast in the form required or beaten into shape on an anvil. A good craftsman could beat a lump of cast brass into a thin bowl. Thus, Elihu asks Job, “Can you beat out [raqa] the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal (Job 37:18)?”
Elihu's question shows that the Hebrews considered the vault of heaven a solid, physical object. Such a large dome would be a tremendous feat of engineering. The Hebrews (and supposedly Yahweh Himself) considered it exactly that, and this point is hammered home by five scriptures:
Job 9:8, “...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]...”
Psalm 19:1, “The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork.”
Psalm 102:25, “...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork.”
Isaiah 45:12, “I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine...”
Isaiah 48:13, “...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky [shamayim]...”
___________________________________
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius