Bounded mutation

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Sherlock Holmes

Bounded mutation

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

I was reading this article earlier, in there we read:
To better understand the impact of this situation, think of it this way: With a genome size of 2.8 × 10^6 and a mutation rate of 1 mutation per 10^10 base pairs, it would take a single bacterium 30 hours to grow into a population in which every single base pair in the genome will have mutated not once, but 30 times! Thus, any individual mutation that could theoretically occur in the bacteria will have occurred somewhere in that population—in just over a day.
This seems to be an admission that even if every possible mutation (from the finite set of possibilities) occurs at some point in the colony, then we still have - bacteria, surely with these rates of reproduction and probabilities of mutation and so on, doesn't this show that the bacteria evolving never leads to anything other than a variant of the bacteria? That the set of all possible mutants is either dead or still more or less the same bacteria.

Given the rate at which bacteria reproduce and their number on earth and in societies, shouldn't we see evidence that the genome has developed more and more novelty? yet it seems all we see is just bacteria...

So is there evidence that bacteria can become something quite different given enough time and if not, why not? are the possible states that the genome can get into simply insufficient to ever lead to escalating novelty?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Bounded mutation

Post #41

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:59 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:35 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:05 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:53 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:49 pm
DrNoGods wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:31 pm Are you actually a teenager posing as an adult?
That's interesting because I actually wondered the same thing yesterday. We're talking about someone who has less than a high school level understanding of biology, and apparently thinks that reading a creationist book and watching a couple of YT videos makes him not only an expert in evolutionary biology, but one of such expertise and authority that he can unilaterally declare things to be so (e.g. "evolution has been falsified") and expect everyone else to merely nod and say "It is so".

From a psychological standpoint it's fascinating to watch.
I'm 62.
And still spouting ignorance as knowledge.
I know, when will you ever stop.
When Christians quit trying to impose their goofy beliefs on everyone.
Nobody here can be remotely described as "trying to impose" you can participate or not as you choose to, if these conversations upset you don't participate, all you seem to do is whine and complain all the time anyway, not much of a conversation for me.

If you claim things that I think are untrue in a thread in this forum then I will challenge you, that's the primary reason we're all here Joey, if you want everyone to never disagree with you then you're wasting your time in a forum like this.

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JoeyKnothead
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Re: Bounded mutation

Post #42

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:52 am Nobody here can be remotely described as "trying to impose" you can participate or not as you choose to,
This site ain't it the only place where Christians occur.
if these conversations upset you don't participate, all you seem to do is whine and complain all the time anyway, not much of a conversation for me.
Again with the insults.

Does it do your God proud to have you -ahem- whine about how others carry on?
If you claim things that I think are untrue in a thread in this forum then I will challenge you, that's the primary reason we're all here Joey, if you want everyone to never disagree with you then you're wasting your time in a forum like this.
Says the guy who can only debate by insult.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Bounded mutation

Post #43

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:24 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:52 am Nobody here can be remotely described as "trying to impose" you can participate or not as you choose to,
This site ain't it the only place where Christians occur.
if these conversations upset you don't participate, all you seem to do is whine and complain all the time anyway, not much of a conversation for me.
Again with the insults.

Does it do your God proud to have you -ahem- whine about how others carry on?
If you claim things that I think are untrue in a thread in this forum then I will challenge you, that's the primary reason we're all here Joey, if you want everyone to never disagree with you then you're wasting your time in a forum like this.
Says the guy who can only debate by insult.
Joey I could agree with but then we'd both be wrong.

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Re: Bounded mutation

Post #44

Post by The Barbarian »

Our own eukaryotic cells protect DNA in chromosomes with a nuclear membrane, make ATP with mitochondria, move with flagella (in the case of sperm cells), and feed on cells which make our food with chloroplasts. All multicellular organisms and the unicellular Protists share this cellular intricacy. Bacterial (prokaryotic) cells are orders of magnitude smaller and have none of this complexity. What quantum leap in evolution created this vast chasm of difference?

The first eukaryotic cells - cells with a nucleus an internal membrane-bound organelles - probably evolved about 2 billion years ago. This is explained by the endosymbiotic theory. As shown in the Figure below, endosymbiosis came about when large cells engulfed small cells. The small cells were not digested by the large cells. Instead, they lived within the large cells and evolved into organelles.

Image

From Independent Cell to Organelle. The endosymbiotic theory explains how eukaryotic cells evolved.
https://bio.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/ ... Eukaryotes

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Re: Bounded mutation

Post #45

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:50 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:24 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:52 am Nobody here can be remotely described as "trying to impose" you can participate or not as you choose to,
This site ain't it the only place where Christians occur.
if these conversations upset you don't participate, all you seem to do is whine and complain all the time anyway, not much of a conversation for me.
Again with the insults.

Does it do your God proud to have you -ahem- whine about how others carry on?
If you claim things that I think are untrue in a thread in this forum then I will challenge you, that's the primary reason we're all here Joey, if you want everyone to never disagree with you then you're wasting your time in a forum like this.
Says the guy who can only debate by insult.
Joey I could agree with but then we'd both be wrong.
I notice you can't refute my argument/s, so now resort to cliche.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Bounded mutation

Post #46

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:51 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:50 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:24 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:52 am Nobody here can be remotely described as "trying to impose" you can participate or not as you choose to,
This site ain't it the only place where Christians occur.
if these conversations upset you don't participate, all you seem to do is whine and complain all the time anyway, not much of a conversation for me.
Again with the insults.

Does it do your God proud to have you -ahem- whine about how others carry on?
If you claim things that I think are untrue in a thread in this forum then I will challenge you, that's the primary reason we're all here Joey, if you want everyone to never disagree with you then you're wasting your time in a forum like this.
Says the guy who can only debate by insult.
Joey I could agree with but then we'd both be wrong.
I notice you can't refute my argument/s, so now resort to cliche.
You've not presented any thesis nor argued for anything.

Most of your posts are dismissive one liners.

Which argument have you made that you claim I have not attempted to refute???

I just reviewed every post you made in this thread and none of them contain any "argument" hence I've not posted any refutation.

Here look, this is the sum total of all your posts in this thread:
And still spouting ignorance as knowledge.

When Christians quit trying to impose their goofy beliefs on everyone.

This site ain't it the only place where Christians occur.

Does it do your God proud to have you -ahem- whine about how others carry on?

Says the guy who can only debate by insult.
Which of these represents this supposed "argument" you believe you presented? I Think you're at a loss when it comes to making any kind of rational case, you seem to regard it as effrontery when someone doesn't share your little make believe world view.

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Re: Bounded mutation

Post #47

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:06 pm You've not presented any thesis nor argued for anything.
I'm content having the observer decide on that.
Most of your posts are dismissive one liners.
That really doesn't say much about the value of your arguments - where a single line of text has em dismissed.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Which argument have you made that you claim I have not attempted to refute???
Oh, you attempted.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: I just reviewed every post you made in this thread and none of them contain any "argument" hence I've not posted any refutation.
argument


...snip out of context quotes..
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Which of these represents this supposed "argument" you believe you presented? I Think you're at a loss when it comes to making any kind of rational case, you seem to regard it as effrontery when someone doesn't share your little make believe world view.
argument

I'm content having the observer decide on if I've argued or not.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Bounded mutation

Post #48

Post by otseng »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:06 pmI Think you're at a loss when it comes to making any kind of rational case, you seem to regard it as effrontery when someone doesn't share your little make believe world view.
:warning: Moderator Warning


Please just debate the arguments, not other posters.

Please review our Rules.

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Re: Bounded mutation

Post #49

Post by The Barbarian »

It should be said that bacterial endosymbiosis is an observed fact in eukaryotes. Mitochondria and chloroplasts, for example, are endosymbiotes in their host cells. They reproduce by means of their own (bacterial) DNA, and closely resemble existing bacteria in the wild.

So, it might be asked if anyone has actually observed such a process to happen. Turns out one has.

Trends in Cell Biology
Volume 5, Issue 3, March 1995, Pages 137-140
Bacterial endosymbiosis in amoebae
Abstract
The large, free-living amoebae are inherently phagocytic. They capture, ingest and digest microbes within their phagolysosomes, including those that survive in other cells. One exception is an unidentified strain of Gram-negative, rod-shaped bacteria that spontaneously infected the D strain of Amoeba proteus and came to survive inside them. These bacteria established a stable symbiotic relationship with amoebae that has resulted in phenotypic modulation of the host and mutual dependence for survival.


"So" one might ask "where would this giant bacterial cell come from, to ingest the smaller bacterium? Did such giant bacteria ever exist?"

Turns out, they still do:

By definition, microbes are supposed to be so small they can only be seen with a microscope. But a newly described bacterium living in Caribbean mangroves never got that memo (see video, above). Its threadlike single cell is visible to the naked eye, growing up to 2 centimeters—as long as a peanut—and 5000 times bigger than many other microbes. What’s more, this giant has a huge genome that’s not free floating inside the cell as in other bacteria, but is instead encased in a membrane, an innovation characteristic of much more complex cells, like those in the human body.

https://www.science.org/content/article ... plex-cells

Not just big enough; it also has a nuclear membrane somewhat like that of a eukaryote. But it's a bacterium, with circular bacterial DNA. And thereby a pretty good indicator of what the transition between prokaryotes and eukaryoes would have been.

So far, no bounds for mutations in evidence.

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Re: Bounded mutation

Post #50

Post by Purple Knight »

I don't see much contention of the actual facts here.

Yes, the "but they're still bacteria" is a fundamentally valid point. Bacteria do seem, from the experiments yet done, to be unable to acquire the complexity needed to, for example, evolve into multicellular hexapods and walk around. Even the first steps toward something like that, at least haven't been observed. (Nod to Barbarian though, and yes I read about the amoebas eating the little gram-negative rod buggies and keeping them).

Bacterium to insane complexity can't (as far as we know) be achieved with just evolution. It required extra, a sudden extraevolutionary event such as endosymbiosis.

It requires some special thing to actually happen beyond just genomes changing.

If there weren't any religious people equating creation to some bearded ogre of a god with anger management issues shaping people out of clay, creation would simply be a fact that everyone accepted. Evolution (in the sense of classical natural selection) can't do it alone. Required that special event. So that's technically a Y on whether some special creation event happened and was needed. An amoeba ate poop. A thing did a thing, and without that thing, there would not be all these cool things. There you go.

More of these special events may well have happened.

None of it requires any gods.

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