Programming morality

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nobspeople
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Programming morality

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Allow me, if you will, to take us years into the future (assuming humanity doesn't kill itself first). Humanity has been able to build androids.
Some are used for physical or dangerous work, others for service, other's still for 'personal use' (ew). They must be programmed to do their tasks.
What about 'care giving'.
To do so, humanity decides we have to program 'morality' into them, as morality is programmed into humans all the time - seems like a doable task.

For discussion:
Will humanity ever be able to program morality into a machine?
Why or why not?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

Bust Nak
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Re: Programming morality

Post #11

Post by Bust Nak »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:26 am That's the rub though, they cannot. Non-computable means there is no algorithm possible, not even in principle, no amount of skill and design can lead to a workable algorithm.
So what? That doesn't address what I said. That's the whole point of proposing non purely algorithmic computers.
The simplest example of non computability is the famous "halting problem..."
Did you even read what I said? This would be an example of "sometimes they don't halt" I mentioned.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Programming morality

Post #12

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:36 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:26 am That's the rub though, they cannot. Non-computable means there is no algorithm possible, not even in principle, no amount of skill and design can lead to a workable algorithm.
So what? That doesn't address what I said. That's the whole point of proposing non purely algorithmic computers.
The simplest example of non computability is the famous "halting problem..."
Did you even read what I said? This would be an example of "sometimes they don't halt" I mentioned.
But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.

Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?

As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems, the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.

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Re: Programming morality

Post #13

Post by Bust Nak »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
That's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."
Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
A non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can 8-) . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.
As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Is there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.
the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Programming morality

Post #14

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
That's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."
My post was in error, this is what I intended to write:

"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
A non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can 8-) . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.
OK lets look at that example?
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Is there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.

the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.

nobspeople
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Re: Programming morality

Post #15

Post by nobspeople »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
That's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."
My post was in error, this is what I intended to write:

"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
A non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can 8-) . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.
OK lets look at that example?
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Is there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.

the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.
That there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the table
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed

"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."

That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Programming morality

Post #16

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
That's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."
My post was in error, this is what I intended to write:

"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
A non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can 8-) . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.
OK lets look at that example?
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Is there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.

the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.
That there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the table
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed

"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."

That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
Well just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.

nobspeople
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Re: Programming morality

Post #17

Post by nobspeople »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:07 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
That's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."
My post was in error, this is what I intended to write:

"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
A non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can 8-) . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.
OK lets look at that example?
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Is there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.

the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.
That there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the table
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed

"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."

That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
Well just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.
Seems to be experts that are trying to solve this problem. Will they? Only time will tell. I wouldn't bet against them given enough time.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Programming morality

Post #18

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:37 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:07 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
That's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."
My post was in error, this is what I intended to write:

"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
A non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can 8-) . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.
OK lets look at that example?
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Is there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.

the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.
That there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the table
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed

"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."

That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
Well just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.
Seems to be experts that are trying to solve this problem. Will they? Only time will tell. I wouldn't bet against them given enough time.
No, this is a question of rigorous logic, mathematics. These are provable claims, here's the proof that the halting problem is non-computable:

nobspeople
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Re: Programming morality

Post #19

Post by nobspeople »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:12 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:37 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:07 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
That's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."
My post was in error, this is what I intended to write:

"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
A non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can 8-) . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.
OK lets look at that example?
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Is there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.

the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.
That there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the table
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed

"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."

That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
Well just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.
Seems to be experts that are trying to solve this problem. Will they? Only time will tell. I wouldn't bet against them given enough time.
No, this is a question of rigorous logic, mathematics. These are provable claims, here's the proof that the halting problem is non-computable:
Not saying it's not an issue now. The link I provide earlier says this as well. But it also says computer scientist are working on the problem and in a couple of decades, the expect to have it.

Other links showing, it may not be possible now, but could be in the future:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/19/tech ... ality.html
https://futureoflife.org/2016/07/06/evo ... reloaded=1
https://nautil.us/ai-is-already-making- ... hat-13740/
https://analyticsindiamag.com/can-moral ... e-systems/
https://topic.alibabacloud.com/a/the-re ... 48807.html
Last edited by nobspeople on Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Programming morality

Post #20

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:18 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:12 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:37 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:07 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
That's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."
My post was in error, this is what I intended to write:

"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
A non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can 8-) . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.
OK lets look at that example?
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm
As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Is there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.

the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.
That there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the table
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed

"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."

That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
Well just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.
Seems to be experts that are trying to solve this problem. Will they? Only time will tell. I wouldn't bet against them given enough time.
No, this is a question of rigorous logic, mathematics. These are provable claims, here's the proof that the halting problem is non-computable:
Not saying it's an issue now. The link I provide earlier says this as well. But it also says computer scientist are working on the problem and in a couple of decades, the expect to have it.
Have what? it is impossible, logically impossible. Did I misunderstand you perhaps?

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