The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Locked
User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #1

Post by William »

"I am only able to see gibberish"

I am presently sharing my Generated Messages with a variety of internet platforms and have noticed that non-theists insist that they only see 'gibberish' [unintelligible or meaningless speech or writing; nonsense.] whereas with theists - no matter what particular belief they have - they appear to be able to - at least - get the gist of any GM - even if some of it is not understood.

To begin with, I was highly skeptical and thought that non-theists were being disingenuous [pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.] and in that, I used other ways in which to try and help them to understand what was taking place, [such as diagrams and analogies], but nothing helped.

This has lead me to question my skepticism and I am now wondering if it is just the case that once an individual unreservedly believes that they - the mind/consciousness - are nothing more than brain chemicals, anything contrary to that understanding simply isn't able to penetrate because "The Mind' only happens in brains and is the reason minds exist."


Is it the case that
1. non-theists are simply unable to 'get their head around ideas' which are outside of the idea that we are simply emergent properties of brains, [every other idea is gibberish/gobbledygook

or

2. are they just being disingenuous?

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #2

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to William in post #1]

Brains are brains. There is no reason to think, well no valid reason, to think there is a theist brain and a non-theist brain. As I said, brains are brains.

As far as your GMs are concerned, whatever gets you through the night.




Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #3

Post by William »

Brains are brains.
Is this true?

For example, are you saying that this brain in a jar...;

Image

...is the same as the brain in your head?

or are you meaning something else?

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #4

Post by William »

Brains are brains.
Are you sure about that?

Can you explain why - if brains are the same - that you and I are unable to ever get on the same page about anything to do with the mind?

Or are you meaning that brains are the 'same' in that the look similar?

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #5

Post by Difflugia »

William wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:50 pmIs it the case that
1. non-theists are simply unable to 'get their head around ideas' which are outside of the idea that we are simply emergent properties of brains, [every other idea is gibberish/gobbledygook

or

2. are they just being disingenuous?
3. They're better than theists at properly evaluating evidence?

4. They're less prone to attributing meaning to noise?

Maybe those are the same thing.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #6

Post by William »

There is no reason to think, well no valid reason, to think there is a theist brain and a non-theist brain.
Re the OP
Are you saying that neither 1 or 2 is a valid reason for perceived gibberish regarding the understanding of consciousness being so different for one another from between theist thinking and non-theists thinking.
If so, do you have any valid reason to offer as way of explaining why - if brains are brains - the minds of those brains are unable to do anything other than disagree as to what the nature of consciousness is?

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #7

Post by William »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:35 pm
William wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:50 pmIs it the case that
1. non-theists are simply unable to 'get their head around ideas' which are outside of the idea that we are simply emergent properties of brains, [every other idea is gibberish/gobbledygook]

or

2. are they just being disingenuous?
3. They're better than theists at properly evaluating evidence?

4. They're less prone to attributing meaning to noise?

Maybe those are the same thing.
3: is simply a non-theist exclamation about something which hasn't been proven.

4: is the same...

Obviously lists can be made giving 'reasons' for why the understanding of consciousness is different between theists and non-theists but the OP is asking if the differences are reconcilable, so adding to the list only makes irreconcilability more out of reach.

In that, if the question were asked of theists, the list could be the same;

"Is it the case that
1. theists are simply unable to 'get their head around ideas' which are outside of the idea that we [individuate consciousnesses] are spirits/ghosts/souls which survive the death of the brain [every other idea is gibberish/gobbledygook]

or

2. are they just being disingenuous?"
Last edited by William on Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #8

Post by JoeyKnothead »

William wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:50 pm 1. non-theists are simply unable to 'get their head around ideas' which are outside of the idea that we are simply emergent properties of brains, [every other idea is gibberish/gobbledygook

or

2. are they just being disingenuous?
Too dichotomaceous.

Why not...

3. Folks find em some goofy, and not so goofy reasons to see 'signs' and meanings where they will.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #9

Post by William »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:53 pm
William wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:50 pm 1. non-theists are simply unable to 'get their head around ideas' which are outside of the idea that we are simply emergent properties of brains, [every other idea is gibberish/gobbledygook

or

2. are they just being disingenuous?
Too dichotomaceous.

Why not...

3. Folks find em some goofy, and not so goofy reasons to see 'signs' and meanings where they will.
Adding to the list of reasons 'why' only widens the gap. I am trying to get to the nitty-gritty and am suspecting that the minds re the brains are so different that never the twain shall meet.

Because if that is the truth of the matter, then theist and non-theists can stop trying to convince each other that their understanding of consciousness is the correct understanding of consciousness.

Or - more to the point - I can put my time to better use re that.


We might agree that belief/understanding that consciousness is emergent of the brain is a solely different mind [mind-set] than belief/understanding that consciousness is a ghost/spirit/soul/personality which can survive the death of the brain.

Essentially [perhaps] the main reason for why there are theist and non-theist individuate consciousnesses in the planetary system we call "Earth".

This has the effect of causing neither mind-set to be able to understand the other on such a subject as consciousness and whatever the other might declare [as stated opinion or supported statement] re that, is literally gibberish to those who are not of the same mind-set.

In that I am not referring to minor confusion re how to "write words correctly" - because those minor things still allow one to 'get the gist'.

Rather, the fact of gibberish is so prevalent, that in all the centuries the battle has been raging between non-theism and theism, it has not been resolved because it simply cannot be resolved.

Each generation thinks it can be resolved "if only the opposition would stop pretending that they don't understand" but the fact of the matter may well be that each - quite naturally - do not and can not understand the other.

I am not declaring the above is necessarily true, but just voicing in written language, why I think it may be a pointless exercise in trying to find common ground between theist and non-theist regarding the nature of consciousness...so as ever - I am open to any contrary view on this observation and interpretation of what is happening re theist/non-theist interaction.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #10

Post by William »

Why I am directing my question to non-theists is to see what they have to say about it.

This is because I post my daily GMs on a number of forum sites - this one as well as on an Agnostic forum
Lucid Dreaming forum
Philosophy forum
Hearing voices forum
Occult forum
and Skeptic forum

Apart from the skeptic forum, where I have been stopped from publishing the GMs because it has been called 'spam', none of the other forums have taken such measures, and the feedback has mostly been positive and the readership counters show that folk are taking an interest in the evidence of the GMs.

Skeptic non theists therefore display a characteristic which is not evident in any of the other forums, which suggests that those who firmly believe that they are [consciousness is] a creation of brains, are simply unable to understand any contrary belief, and visa versa.

Locked