The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #1

Post by William »

"I am only able to see gibberish"

I am presently sharing my Generated Messages with a variety of internet platforms and have noticed that non-theists insist that they only see 'gibberish' [unintelligible or meaningless speech or writing; nonsense.] whereas with theists - no matter what particular belief they have - they appear to be able to - at least - get the gist of any GM - even if some of it is not understood.

To begin with, I was highly skeptical and thought that non-theists were being disingenuous [pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.] and in that, I used other ways in which to try and help them to understand what was taking place, [such as diagrams and analogies], but nothing helped.

This has lead me to question my skepticism and I am now wondering if it is just the case that once an individual unreservedly believes that they - the mind/consciousness - are nothing more than brain chemicals, anything contrary to that understanding simply isn't able to penetrate because "The Mind' only happens in brains and is the reason minds exist."


Is it the case that
1. non-theists are simply unable to 'get their head around ideas' which are outside of the idea that we are simply emergent properties of brains, [every other idea is gibberish/gobbledygook

or

2. are they just being disingenuous?

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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #61

Post by William »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #60]
Just understand it's a third option. It's actually not the one I chose to be the most likely, but people do sometimes mindlessly agree with others who share their views, theists and atheists alike. They sometimes find things to agree with, because they're trying to agree with it.
It makes no difference to the idea that the mind-sets are incompatible in relation to how consciousness is understood.

Even your observation that long posts are deemed 'word salad' or that non-theists skim or completely ignore long posts of explanation that the non-theist asked for, and pick out maybe one line they can run with in order to 'make someone look stupid' - the tactic to make someone look stupid is just another reason not to engage with non-theists.

Even post #56 is a good example of the kind of tactic you are explaining, trying to marginalize something which is much more complex than the post implies, along with post #57 - the buddy system where another non-theist [and often strings of non-theists] set about having a good laugh commenting on a post which isn't even relevant to the thread topic.

It is how the non-theist mind works in relation to the non-theist understanding of the mind.

Why should theists waste their time engaging, is what the OP is asking.

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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #62

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to William in post #59]
Whereas, the non-theist does not see that as being the case, because no brain is evident.
But a brain IS evident. It is the thing inside our craniums that we can physically see is present. The disagreement is that some of us believe that one of the manifestations of its complex physical functions is consciousness, mind (whatever you want to call it), and others believe that this is not simply an emergent property of a working brain but sources from some other mechanism(s) involving higher beings or entities that cannot (apparently) be explicitly defined or discovered beyond the thought processes of humans. That could be the case once we finally figure it (consciousness) out if we ever do, but why should it be weighted more than the simple physical explanation of consciousness being an emergent property of a working brain when we do at least have more than a little evidence on that side?
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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #63

Post by brunumb »

Tcg wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:52 pm Image
I thought that such offensive images were not allowed here. ;)
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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #64

Post by JoeyKnothead »

William wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:39 am ...
Even post #56 is a good example of the kind of tactic you are explaining, trying to marginalize something which is much more complex than the post implies, along with post #57 - the buddy system where another non-theist [and often strings of non-theists] set about having a good laugh commenting on a post which isn't even relevant to the thread topic.
...
Sometimes it is, folks might see a different way of framing the same argument, which brings about the very real possibility of seeming to be "off topic". You've been quite adept at teaching me how to do the same, with your unique perspective.

In such a case, I'd prefer to ask for relevancy before accusations of "marginalizing".

And sometimes a joke is just a joke.

I, personally, find your arguments regarding a mind behind creation to be quite thought provoking, and difficult for me to argue against. I wouldn't ever want you, nor nobody else to think me making a joke on a single post to be about someone's entire argument. Especially when there's a bit of a divergent way of presenting such an argument (that may be off topic if we lack immediate understanding of relevance).

As this relates to the OP, what I'm getting at is there's mindsets. Some'll see 'generated messages' as possibly profound insights into all manner of stuff, and some won't.

To think that line divides theist from nontheist, with implications of being disingenuous, I contend, is unnecessarily devisive.

Folks find meanings where they will. Some see Mount Rushmore as a great ode to past national leaders.

Me, I see it as a vulgar violation of the natural beauty of the mountain itself.

I, an atheist, am fully capable of finding meaning in the words an algorithm can string together. I just don't put as much weight to such statements as others might.


So instead of asking, "How come them atheists won't put the same weight to these strings of words", maybe the best question is, "How come it is I do?"
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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #65

Post by Tcg »

brunumb wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:05 am
Tcg wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:52 pm Image
I thought that such offensive images were not allowed here. ;)
What? I see a Maryland blue crab. 8-)

Well, a blue crab that has swallowed a praying mantis, a puppy dog with elephant ears, and that other thing whatever it is.


Tcg
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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #66

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:32 pm
William wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:28 pm
There is no such thing as accidental. But a theist cannot explain to a non-theist why that is the case, and ever expect to be understood.
They could if they provided verifiable evidence to support this claim. What have you that qualifies?


Tcg
Assuming the atheist comprehends, accepts the evidence. This is a recurring theme in discussions such as this. The theist asserts something, the atheist demands "evidence", the theist presents evidence, the atheist claims that it is no such thing and accuses the theist of not presenting evidence.

This is the impasse and although the atheist can claim evidence has not been presented he cannot prove it, it all comes down to the nature of evidence and is interpretation. If the atheist cannot recognize evidence for God, then why does he demand to see it?

It's also typical of atheism too that the standards of evidence required to support the atheists claims is always lower than the standard of evidence they demand from the theist.
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #67

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:57 pm
William wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:54 pm [Replying to Tcg in post #42]
We'll never know...
Exactly!

As theists know, - cutting to the chase - they have to find out for their self, rather than rely upon others to find out for them.

That is because their minds are different from non-theists minds.
Ah, yes. More claims with zero evidence to support them.


Tcg
Have you ever heard the phrase "self evident truth"? What does the term mean to you?

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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #68

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

brunumb wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:52 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:01 am Truths that might be out there are beyond the reach of the atheist because their materialist position itself prevents then from ever discovering anything that is outside of scientism. This is why some speak of "gibberish" - they cannot understand that their choice of worldview inhibits intellectual growth.
Truths that might be out there only become truths when they are revealed as such. Claiming such truths actually exist without being able to demonstrate it is just a lot of irrelevant hand-waving. What so-called truths have been discovered on the basis of theism? Also, please show how the worldview of anyone who is an atheist inhibits their intellectual growth.
Are there true statements that cannot be demonstrated to be true?

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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #69

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The atheist believes in materialism, empiricism. They hold that view not because they can prove it correct but because they see no reason (no "evidence") that it is false. The atheist is therefore really asking for reasons to stop being an atheist yet their belief that materialism is true prevents them from comprehending evidence that undermines materialism therefore they are intellectually trapped.

Once one adopts materialism as a belief it is very hard to escape because all experiences are interpreted as some aspect of materialism even the many that cannot be proven to be. (often defended by one of the core atheist statements of faith: "but just because science hasn't explained this yet doesn't mean...)

The belief itself limits what the mind can learn, it is an intellectual straitjacket, very hard to escape from. The theist operates at a higher, less restricted intellectual level. They naturally value materialism but in addition see no reason to believe theism is false and so additionally embrace the spiritual and can see a different universe one that's hidden from the atheist through their own choice, albeit unwittingly.

They seem to never consider that if materialism is false then materialism cannot ever reveal that fact to them, this is the trap.

This is made all the worse today by the increasing prevalence of "scientism" as the only rational way to perceive the universe, it is a belief though, no evidence to support the claim.

The atheist often strives to reduce a serious conversation into a humorous one too, the little digs and jokes about Rorschach tests, sarcasm and so on, typify these discussions, reducing the argument to one that portrays the theist as a little soppy, not quite grasping science, not to be taken too seriously and so on, almost all the threads here about this reduce sooner or later to ridicule and on and on it goes.

This depicts how these conversations proceed or end up over and over again:

Image

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Re: The Thesist and non-Theist Brain

Post #70

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:20 amThe atheist believes in materialism, empiricism. They hold that view not because they can prove it correct but because they see no reason (no "evidence") that it is false.
This is true. It's also the only thing in your comment that's true.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:20 amThe atheist often reduces a serious conversation into a humorous one too, the little digs and jokes about Rorschach tests and so on, typify these discussions,
It's not a dig. The psychological pressures involved in being human and evaluating evidence are well-known. Several members have offered the OP ways to cure the defects in the data gathering and analysis.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:20 amreducing the argument to one that portrays the theist as a little soppy, not quite grasping science, not to be taken too seriously and so on,
The unwillingness to cure the defective method is what implies those things.
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