Does the body need consciousness?

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AgnosticBoy
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Does the body need consciousness?

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

If there is no bodily function for consciousness, or if the body can operate without it, then is it valid to say that consciousness is tied to the brain? If consciousness is not tied to the brain then could that mean that it exists as a separate entity? Keep in mind that being separate does not always mean no relationship or interaction. The brain and consciousness can be separate entities but still work together, just as my brother and I are two different people, but yet we can still work together and interact.

I know of at least one case or condition that shows the body can operate completely on its own without consciousness, and that is the condition of sleepwalking or parasomnia.
Sleepwalkers are capable of performing a variety of activities, from simply getting up and walking around the room to driving a car or playing an instrument.

Sleepwalking isn't the only parasomnia. There's also sleepsex, sometimes called sexsomnia or SBS (somnambulistic sexual behavior). It's pretty much what it sounds like — sexual behavior during sleep. People with this condition might touch themselves sexually or initiate sex while asleep. They only know it happened when their roommate or partner mentions the incident. One man was actually acquitted of rape after using the defense that he was asleep at the time of the assault
Source: HowStuffWorks

On another thread, DrNoGods tried to counter by saying that sleepwalkers are conscious.
I'd argue that the sleepwalker is still conscious in that the brain is working and some sensory input is working, but while still in a state of sleep. Such people can apparently navigate a room, make it to the fridge and eat a snack, etc. which would not be possible without some of the usual sensory inputs and processing by the brain.
It seems that he or she is forgetting that sensory information can be processed unconsciously, e.g. 'subliminal perception'. The body can also move on its own or without conscious will, and we have plenty of examples when it comes to reflexes and other types of involuntary movements. This convinces me that the body is capable of being an automaton or in zombie-like mode. Again, if the brain/body has no need or function for consciousness, then we can't say that consciousness is tied to the brain. Also, the experts define sleepwalking as "unconscious" behavior.

For debate:
1. IF there is no functional role for consciousness, then does that mean it is not tied to the brain? If not tied to brain, then can it exist separately?

2. Is sleepwalking a valid example of the brain/body being able to function without consciousness? And by that I mean being able to perform virtually all possible bodily actions that we tend to describe as being "conscious" or alert behavior, such as eatting, talking, driving?
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #41

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

[Replying to brunumb in post #39]

That does look like a fascinating conversation, getting Penrose to talk at length like that on this subject is probably not easy as he's a very busy man, so we're fortunate to be able to listen to him.

I read The Emperor's New Mind when it first came out and as a software engineer with a deep interest in mathematics and science in general, I found the material in the book refreshing and thought provoking.

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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #42

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:32 am
brunumb wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:45 am Just noticed this in YouTube. Haven't watched it yet but thought it might be of some interest.

Asking a Theoretical Physicist About the Physics of Consciousness | Roger Penrose & Jordan Peterson

That does look like a fascinating conversation, getting Penrose to talk at length like that on this subject is probably not easy as he's a very busy man, so we're fortunate to be able to listen to him.
I have to admit that the conversation was terrible. Even from the start, I thought they were dealing more with cognition than consciousness, but then the conversation just went all over the place, talking about black holes, etc. I believe Dr. Peterson was more to blame for this because he let his curiosity in physics get in the way of staying on topic.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #43

Post by William »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #42]
I have to admit that the conversation was terrible. Even from the start, I thought they were dealing more with cognition than consciousness, but then the conversation just went all over the place, talking about black holes, etc. I believe Dr. Peterson was more to blame for this because he let his curiosity in physics get in the way of staying on topic.
The conversation is very informative.

One of the interesting things I found helpful was Sir Roger's idea of three systems interacting with each other - “Three worlds and three deep mysteries”
Image
and how he does not consider consciousness to being emergent of the physical world or that mathematics is an invention.
Rather, he considers mathematics to have always existed and something humans discovered.



I see these realms/worlds as superimposing upon one another, rather than being separate from and tunneling into one another.

Image

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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #44

Post by AgnosticBoy »

William wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:07 pm [Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #42]
I have to admit that the conversation was terrible. Even from the start, I thought they were dealing more with cognition than consciousness, but then the conversation just went all over the place, talking about black holes, etc. I believe Dr. Peterson was more to blame for this because he let his curiosity in physics get in the way of staying on topic.
The conversation is very informative.
We need a tie breaking vote. 8-)
AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:43 pm
brunumb wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:44 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 4:03 pm But here we are, William and I (two humble agnostics), still not taken seriously because we dare to consider that consciousness might be something that's less than physical.
Why does my consciousness remain only associated with me and go wherever I go?
Why is my consciousness only aware of things that my brain processes as a result of stimulus received through the senses?
Why can't my consciousness be shared with others if it is something other than a phenomenon associated with my brain?
How did I acquire my particular consciousness?
If my brain is affected and I am effectively unconscious, where is my so-called consciousness if it is something other than a brain phenomenon?
All valid points but none of them justify the unnecessary or restrictive conclusion that consciousness is caused by or limited to brain. The evidence is not in to go that far. The brain may also be a medium for consciousness, where consciousness interacts with brain but is not limited to it. This is a reasonably open-minded conclusion.
Another reason I like the more reasonably open-minded position is because it makes less assumptions.

Sure, brain and other physical things can interact with consciousness (e.g. the effects of certain drugs on consciousness). I think few reasonably people would dispute this. What I dispute or find to be an assumption is that consciousness is limited to the brain.

And without proof that consciousness is physical, I'd rather have a more open-minded view that allows for different levels or types of consciousness, likef one that is not entirely physical at some level. Or I can just remain agnostic.
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