Does the body need consciousness?

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AgnosticBoy
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Does the body need consciousness?

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

If there is no bodily function for consciousness, or if the body can operate without it, then is it valid to say that consciousness is tied to the brain? If consciousness is not tied to the brain then could that mean that it exists as a separate entity? Keep in mind that being separate does not always mean no relationship or interaction. The brain and consciousness can be separate entities but still work together, just as my brother and I are two different people, but yet we can still work together and interact.

I know of at least one case or condition that shows the body can operate completely on its own without consciousness, and that is the condition of sleepwalking or parasomnia.
Sleepwalkers are capable of performing a variety of activities, from simply getting up and walking around the room to driving a car or playing an instrument.

Sleepwalking isn't the only parasomnia. There's also sleepsex, sometimes called sexsomnia or SBS (somnambulistic sexual behavior). It's pretty much what it sounds like — sexual behavior during sleep. People with this condition might touch themselves sexually or initiate sex while asleep. They only know it happened when their roommate or partner mentions the incident. One man was actually acquitted of rape after using the defense that he was asleep at the time of the assault
Source: HowStuffWorks

On another thread, DrNoGods tried to counter by saying that sleepwalkers are conscious.
I'd argue that the sleepwalker is still conscious in that the brain is working and some sensory input is working, but while still in a state of sleep. Such people can apparently navigate a room, make it to the fridge and eat a snack, etc. which would not be possible without some of the usual sensory inputs and processing by the brain.
It seems that he or she is forgetting that sensory information can be processed unconsciously, e.g. 'subliminal perception'. The body can also move on its own or without conscious will, and we have plenty of examples when it comes to reflexes and other types of involuntary movements. This convinces me that the body is capable of being an automaton or in zombie-like mode. Again, if the brain/body has no need or function for consciousness, then we can't say that consciousness is tied to the brain. Also, the experts define sleepwalking as "unconscious" behavior.

For debate:
1. IF there is no functional role for consciousness, then does that mean it is not tied to the brain? If not tied to brain, then can it exist separately?

2. Is sleepwalking a valid example of the brain/body being able to function without consciousness? And by that I mean being able to perform virtually all possible bodily actions that we tend to describe as being "conscious" or alert behavior, such as eatting, talking, driving?
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #11

Post by nobspeople »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:26 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:25 am [Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #1]

1) Rather or not it's tied to the brain doesn't mean it has to have a function or no.
AGreed. That's an alternative to keep in mind.

The question of function is important because it helps answer if consciousness is restricted to the brain. If the function of consciousness is just to process information, then we say that a computer is conscious since it processes information. The only difference would be anatomy or structure where it takes place, where instead of tissue, you have circuits.

I would say that if consciousness has no function in the brain, then it makes it easier or leaves the door open for the view that it is not tied to the brain. To say that it is tied to the brain would involve showing that it does something that could only occur in a brain.

The same logic applies to the definition of any term. How you define it determines how or where it applies.
It seems to me consciousness has, at least, some 'play' on/with the brain. But if we were to believe in and accept astral projection as viable, it seems it can 'disconnect' from the body. But this could also involve 'alternate universes' and how they interact with humans....
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #12

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Just adding some additional observations...

One simple way to show my point from the OP is by doing a process of elimination.

One way to rule out something as a cause or function (in this case, consciousness) is to show that a phenomenon or behavior can persist without it. If I can eat, talk, drive, and even have sex while sleeping (or without consciousness), then that shows that consciousness is not needed for those activities. It's been ruled out.

Earlier, I presented a study that shows that we can receive and process sensory information without consciousness. This shows that you can pay attention to something without consciousness or your awareness of it. BUT i don't think the reverse is true. Consciousness requires attention but attention does not require consciousness.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #13

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #12]
If I can eat, talk, drive, and even have sex while sleeping (or without consciousness), then that shows that consciousness is not needed for those activities. It's been ruled out.
It is ruled out if the state of being asleep is equivalent to being unconscious. I'd argue that sleep is just a state of lower awareness than being fully awake where the body enters specific patterns, but it is not a state of unconsciousness. There are often 4 different levels of sleep defined (NREM 1, 2 and 3, and REM):

https://www.verywellhealth.com/the-four ... ep-2795920

Any of them can be quickly interrupted by noise (alarm clock, being spoken too loudly, etc.), being shaken or some other physical disturbance, restoring an awake condition. It seems there is a spectrum between being fully awake, and completely unconscious, with sleep somewhere between the two (but closer to awake than unconscious). A boxer or accident victim who (at least temporarily) cannot be awoken by the things that can awaken someone who is sleeping, is further along the spectrum towards genuine unconsciousness than normal sleeping, and someone in a coma or vegetative state is even further down the spectrum (or at least more permanently so) . A sleepwalker (or sleep eater, etc.) may be in a state between sleep and fully awake that most people don't get into, where they can do normal things but are still essentially in a sleep-like state.

When I think of unconcsiousness, I think of "complete unawareness" and loss of the 5 senses, even if the brain is still functioning at the base level needed to maintain heart function, breathing, homeostatis, etc. A far deeper condition than sleep.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #14

Post by brunumb »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:50 am One way to rule out something as a cause or function (in this case, consciousness) is to show that a phenomenon or behavior can persist without it. If I can eat, talk, drive, and even have sex while sleeping (or without consciousness), then that shows that consciousness is not needed for those activities. It's been ruled out.
How many of those activities can one carry out while under a general anesthetic?
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #15

Post by AgnosticBoy »

DrNoGods wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:52 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:50 am If I can eat, talk, drive, and even have sex while sleeping (or without consciousness), then that shows that consciousness is not needed for those activities. It's been ruled out.
It seems there is a spectrum between being fully awake, and completely unconscious, with sleep somewhere between the two (but closer to awake than unconscious).
I take this to be the crux of your argument. Even if we associate perception of our senses with consciousness (which is your view), do you think being in a low state of consciousness would be enough to perform complex activities such as driving and having sex? If so, then what is the point of higher levels of consciousness? It seems that you're trying to argue that any level of consciousness would do to accomplish the tasks that I brought up during sleepwalking. That actually undercuts the whole point of there being "levels" of awareness.

Either way, the bigger point that you're leaving out is that you can have sensory perception without consciousness. I posted a study on just that in the OP regarding subliminal perception, sometimes called 'unconscious perception'. Some would probably question this because they think that if their eyes are starring at something, then that means they're aware of it. That's not the case at all and scientists have used various experiments observing neural specific activity while showing sensory stimuli to a subject and the subject reported NOT seeing it...
In the current context, we use the term unconscious perception to refer to situations when subjects report not seeing a given stimulus, but their behavior or brain activity suggests that specific information about the unperceived stimulus was indeed processed by the brain. Neural activity does not always lead to awareness. Neurons may fire in a stimulus-specific way at many levels of the brain, but this activity may not be strong enough, last long enough, or involve enough neurons or brain areas to lead to awareness.
Source: Bernard J. Baars, Nicole M. Gage, in Cognition, Brain, and Consciousness (Second Edition), 2010

The information quoted above shows that consciousness is not needed for perception. This clearly shows that your claim below is wrong.
DrNoGods wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:56 pmI'd argue that the sleepwalker is still conscious in that the brain is working and some sensory input is working,
Last edited by AgnosticBoy on Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #16

Post by AgnosticBoy »

brunumb wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:22 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:50 am One way to rule out something as a cause or function (in this case, consciousness) is to show that a phenomenon or behavior can persist without it. If I can eat, talk, drive, and even have sex while sleeping (or without consciousness), then that shows that consciousness is not needed for those activities. It's been ruled out.
How many of those activities can one carry out while under a general anesthetic?
If the patient is paralyzed (which usually occurs under general anesthesia), then he wouldn't be able to move, let alone sleepwalk.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #17

Post by William »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:58 pm
brunumb wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:22 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:50 am One way to rule out something as a cause or function (in this case, consciousness) is to show that a phenomenon or behavior can persist without it. If I can eat, talk, drive, and even have sex while sleeping (or without consciousness), then that shows that consciousness is not needed for those activities. It's been ruled out.
How many of those activities can one carry out while under a general anesthetic?
If the patient is paralyzed (which usually occurs under general anesthesia), then he wouldn't be able to move, let alone sleepwalk.
And then there is sleep paralysis where the individual consciousness is very aware, but its body is paralyzed...

When one is down and out (under general anesthesia) there is no conscious awareness. That is the dark place, which we remember being in, only after regaining consciousness.

That could suggest that the brain is turned off sufficiently to place consciousness in an unconscious - timeless state - and what has us understanding that perhaps there is no consciousness when the brain dies.
There has to be some other type of receptacle in which the consciousness can survive after the brain has ceased to function and dies.

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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #18

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #15]
The information quoted above shows that consciousness is not needed for perception. This clearly shows that your claim below is wrong.
The linked 2010 article said nothing about sleepwalking so not sure why you think it is relevent to my sleepwalking comment. It has long been known that the brain responds subconsciously without crossing a level where the person realizes it consciously. People can be shown a series of photos rapidly and show specific brain activity for certain photos (eg. of a deceased relative) but they have no concscious awareness and claim they never saw the image. Many studies have been done on this sort of thing and it is well known, and the linked article is just another example of this kind of thing. It is discussed in detail in a book I've refereced before in similar discussions (Consciousness and the Brain: Deciphering how the Brain Codes our Thoughts, Stanislas Dehaene, Penguin Books, 2014).

What in the linked article do you think relates to sleepwalking? It is not possible for someone to drive a car unrandomly (ie. get from A to B following road lanes). The brain has to process sight and allow the person to control the steering wheel, accelerator and brakes in an organized manner, otherwise they'd run into something or never get into the vehicle in the first place. Evidently, some people are able to enter a state where they may be technically in a partial state of sleep, but still have enough faculties working to see properly and interpret what they see, and operate an automobile with the brain controlling the movement of their arms and legs, according to an ability they already have (ie. the ability to drive a car).

I don't how well known effects like subconscious recognition of something, as the linked article describes, relates to sleepwalking.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #19

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:08 pm There has to be some other type of receptacle in which the consciousness can survive after the brain has ceased to function and dies.
My consciousness goes where I go. It is only associated with me. When I am unconscious I have no consciousness. It is not aware of anything elsewhere. It is not waiting for me in some container until I am ready to have it back. It is associated with my living brain and when that brain dies so does my consciousness. It does not whoosh off to some other receptacle.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #20

Post by AgnosticBoy »

DrNoGods wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:18 am [Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #15]
The information quoted above shows that consciousness is not needed for perception. This clearly shows that your claim below is wrong.
The linked 2010 article said nothing about sleepwalking so not sure why you think it is relevent to my sleepwalking comment. It has long been known that the brain responds subconsciously without crossing a level where the person realizes it consciously. People can be shown a series of photos rapidly and show specific brain activity for certain photos (eg. of a deceased relative) but they have no concscious awareness and claim they never saw the image. Many studies have been done on this sort of thing and it is well known, and the linked article is just another example of this kind of thing. It is discussed in detail in a book I've refereced before in similar discussions (Consciousness and the Brain: Deciphering how the Brain Codes our Thoughts, Stanislas Dehaene, Penguin Books, 2014).
It's relevant to sleepwalking because a sleepwalker can operate based on unconscious perception. In other words, no consciousness or conscious control is needed.
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