Does the body need consciousness?

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Does the body need consciousness?

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

If there is no bodily function for consciousness, or if the body can operate without it, then is it valid to say that consciousness is tied to the brain? If consciousness is not tied to the brain then could that mean that it exists as a separate entity? Keep in mind that being separate does not always mean no relationship or interaction. The brain and consciousness can be separate entities but still work together, just as my brother and I are two different people, but yet we can still work together and interact.

I know of at least one case or condition that shows the body can operate completely on its own without consciousness, and that is the condition of sleepwalking or parasomnia.
Sleepwalkers are capable of performing a variety of activities, from simply getting up and walking around the room to driving a car or playing an instrument.

Sleepwalking isn't the only parasomnia. There's also sleepsex, sometimes called sexsomnia or SBS (somnambulistic sexual behavior). It's pretty much what it sounds like — sexual behavior during sleep. People with this condition might touch themselves sexually or initiate sex while asleep. They only know it happened when their roommate or partner mentions the incident. One man was actually acquitted of rape after using the defense that he was asleep at the time of the assault
Source: HowStuffWorks

On another thread, DrNoGods tried to counter by saying that sleepwalkers are conscious.
I'd argue that the sleepwalker is still conscious in that the brain is working and some sensory input is working, but while still in a state of sleep. Such people can apparently navigate a room, make it to the fridge and eat a snack, etc. which would not be possible without some of the usual sensory inputs and processing by the brain.
It seems that he or she is forgetting that sensory information can be processed unconsciously, e.g. 'subliminal perception'. The body can also move on its own or without conscious will, and we have plenty of examples when it comes to reflexes and other types of involuntary movements. This convinces me that the body is capable of being an automaton or in zombie-like mode. Again, if the brain/body has no need or function for consciousness, then we can't say that consciousness is tied to the brain. Also, the experts define sleepwalking as "unconscious" behavior.

For debate:
1. IF there is no functional role for consciousness, then does that mean it is not tied to the brain? If not tied to brain, then can it exist separately?

2. Is sleepwalking a valid example of the brain/body being able to function without consciousness? And by that I mean being able to perform virtually all possible bodily actions that we tend to describe as being "conscious" or alert behavior, such as eatting, talking, driving?
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #21

Post by William »

brunumb wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:57 pm
William wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:08 pm There has to be some other type of receptacle in which the consciousness can survive after the brain has ceased to function and dies.
My consciousness goes where I go.
I am 'my consciousness'. Who are 'you' in relation to consciousness 'going' with this 'you' that you claim you are?
It is only associated with me.
This is not true. The very fact that we can inject our conscious thought into other consciousness brings with it the reality that it can be associated with others - not 'only' with the 'you'.
When I am unconscious I have no consciousness.
Where then did that consciousness 'go' when 'you' are unconscious? Where were 'you' when that happened?
It is not aware of anything elsewhere. It is not waiting for me in some container until I am ready to have it back. It is associated with my living brain and when that brain dies so does my consciousness. It does not whoosh off to some other receptacle.
I appears the 'you' being referred to is 'the brain'...Aye - the difference in how one 'sees' the self, determines what one believes in relation to that seeing.

The Theist and non-Theist Brain produce different perspectives. That you believe there will be no more to your experience as 'you' once the brain that you believe you are, dies...is specific to your position rather than any known truth on the matter.

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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #22

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #20]
It's relevant to sleepwalking because a sleepwalker can operate based on unconscious perception. In other words, no consciousness or conscious control is needed.
But this equates sleep with unconsciosness. My argument is that sleep is not unconsciousness but rather a state of reduced awareness ... more of a "fuzzy" consciousness. It is very easy to be awaken from sleep, and very quickly (seconds), for most people. I see sleepwalking as this article describes:

Sleep experts believe that sleepwalking normally happens when a person is in a stage of deep sleep and gets partially awoken in a way that triggers physical activity while remaining mostly asleep.

They are "mostly asleep", but partially awake at the same time so that they can carry out activities they already know how to do. Not the same as being genuinely unconscious.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #23

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:14 pm There has to be some other type of receptacle in which the consciousness can survive after the brain has ceased to function and dies.

William wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:08 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:57 pm My consciousness goes where I go.
I am 'my consciousness'. Who are 'you' in relation to consciousness 'going' with this 'you' that you claim you are?
My consciousness is what I am aware of so it goes with me wherever I go.

William wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:08 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:57 pm It is only associated with me.
This is not true. The very fact that we can inject our conscious thought into other consciousness brings with it the reality that it can be associated with others - not 'only' with the 'you'.
Yes, it is true. I do not inject my awareness into others. I do not experience my consciousness through them. We do not inject our conscious thoughts into others. They may receive stimulus or input from us via their senses such as hearing what we say or seeing what we do and that may affect how they are thinking. They are not assimilating our consciousness in any way.

William wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:08 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:57 pm When I am unconscious I have no consciousness.
Where then did that consciousness 'go' when 'you' are unconscious? Where were 'you' when that happened?
I essentially do not exist when I am unconscious. For example, doctors can cut you open and perform all sorts of manipulations on you under an anesthetic without you being aware of any of it. The only difference between that and being dead is that you regain consciousness if you don't die.

William wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:08 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:57 pm It is not aware of anything elsewhere. It is not waiting for me in some container until I am ready to have it back. It is associated with my living brain and when that brain dies so does my consciousness. It does not whoosh off to some other receptacle.
I appears the 'you' being referred to is 'the brain'...Aye - the difference in how one 'sees' the self, determines what one believes in relation to that seeing.

The Theist and non-Theist Brain produce different perspectives. That you believe there will be no more to your experience as 'you' once the brain that you believe you are, dies...is specific to your position rather than any known truth on the matter.
That is very much a two-way street. What one believes does not necessarily reflect reality, theist brain or otherwise.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #24

Post by The Barbarian »

I read a short story once, about a guy who did not want to exist any longer. Life was painful for him, but being an ethical guy, he didn't want to commit suicide,as that would pain a number of people who cared about him. Then he learned about a drug that would destroy his consciousness, while leaving his body and brain untouched. He would no longer exist, but his body would go on, acting as if he did.

Sounded perfect to him. So one night, he took the drug, and went to sleep, content in the knowledge that he would be gone, but no one else would be aware of it, since his body would continue to function exactly as if he were still there.

The next morning, his body got up and said, "What is this? Nothing happened at all. I'm still here."

What did happen?

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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #25

Post by AgnosticBoy »

DrNoGods wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:37 am
It's relevant to sleepwalking because a sleepwalker can operate based on unconscious perception. In other words, no consciousness or conscious control is needed.
But this equates sleep with unconsciosness. My argument is that sleep is not unconsciousness but rather a state of reduced awareness ... more of a "fuzzy" consciousness. It is very easy to be awaken from sleep, and very quickly (seconds), for most people.
I wouldn't say that someone sleeping is completely unconscious since they can dream. I would say that they are not conscious of their external environment. In fact, you can even be awake, but not be aware of everything your senses pick up (refer to study in post #1). So even wakefulness does not guarantee consciousness of everything that you encounter.
DrNoGods wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:37 amI see sleepwalking as this article describes:

Sleep experts believe that sleepwalking normally happens when a person is in a stage of deep sleep and gets partially awoken in a way that triggers physical activity while remaining mostly asleep.

They are "mostly asleep", but partially awake at the same time so that they can carry out activities they already know how to do. Not the same as being genuinely unconscious.
[emphasis added]

Your excerpt uses a keyword here, "believe". Other sources state otherwise:
"During an episode of parasomnia, individuals are neither awake nor aware, but their actions appear conscious."
Source: Neuroethics

AND
"People who sleepwalk tend to have no memory of the episode, Mahowald explained. This is because the behaviors take place without conscious awareness — they originate from the brain's central pattern generator, where the neural pathways for learned and heavily practiced movements are stored. For this reason, you won't find a sleepwalker playing the piano if that person has no prior musical training or speaking a language they don't already know, he said."
Source: LiveScience

So we're still left with no proven function of consciousness in the body (although there are theories). I also take it that fetal behavior supports my point since the fetus can respond to stimuli, but some experts still don't consider that consciousness. One member here told me a newborn is not conscious until some 5 months after birth. So again, I fail to see why receiving and responding to sensory stimuli requires consciousness (i bring in sleepwalking to show the complex behaviors that can occur without consciousness).

If we really want to get theoretical here, what's to stop a scientists from creating a zombie? That alone would prove my case that the body can act without consciousness. I'd think that would be easier to do than creating a fully functioning human being with consciousness.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #26

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #1]

God doesn't have a brain, and he seems to be doing just fine.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #27

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #26]
God doesn't have a brain, and he seems to be doing just fine.
If God (whichever one you believe exists) is a "he", then how to you know he doesn't have a brain? What is a brainless "he"? And how do you know he "seems" to be doing fine? Is there some indicator you use to gauge how he's doing at any given time?

I suppose all of these things are malleable for imaginary beings as it is permissible to just make up things willy nilly, but using the word "he" suggests that this being has a sex associated with it, and would be a physical being. Not having a brain in that case would seem to be a very big problem.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #28

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #25]
For this reason, you won't find a sleepwalker playing the piano if that person has no prior musical training or speaking a language they don't already know, he said."
Exactly. It is the same a dreaming where the brain pieces together elements from memory to create the storyline or dream path. A sleepwalker could not get to the car and drive it without prior experience doing just that. Why can't sleepwalking be simply someone acting out aspects of a dream physically while remaining in a state of sleep? They can be woken up after all in the middle of the episode and may not remember what they were doing, or be confused initially, but it doesn't seem to be anything more than physically acting out a dream beyond the more common activities that occur while dreaming (eg. talking, making unusual movements while dreaming, etc.). It is just a more unusual version that some people (usually young people) can do and usually grow out of.
So we're still left with no proven function of consciousness in the body (although there are theories). I also take it that fetal behavior supports my point since the fetus can respond to stimuli, but some experts still don't consider that consciousness. One member here told me a newborn is not conscious until some 5 months after birth. So again, I fail to see why receiving and responding to sensory stimuli requires consciousness (i bring in sleepwalking to show the complex behaviors that can occur without consciousness).
If consciousness is an emergent property of the brain (as I believe), then there is no problem with the brain performing all kinds of subconsciouness functions in parallel with our consciousness awareness and purposeful functions. The hind brain can handle a lot of the low level functions (eg. maintaining breathing, responding to pain inputs, etc.) and we know there are many stimulus inputs that the brain reacts to but that don't cross the threshold of us being consciously aware of it (eg. the fast photo tests). So receiving and responding to all stimuli does not require a fully awake, aware level of consciousness ... plenty of that occurs continuously without us being aware of it or purposefully "thinking" to make it happen.
If we really want to get theoretical here, what's to stop a scientists from creating a zombie? That alone would prove my case that the body can act without consciousness. I'd think that would be easier to do than creating a fully functioning human being with consciousness.
I'm not sure what a "zombie" is beyond some vague movie term for a created character. Is there a formal definition of a zombie?
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #29

Post by AgnosticBoy »

DrNoGods wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:36 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 12:32 pm For this reason, you won't find a sleepwalker playing the piano if that person has no prior musical training or speaking a language they don't already know, he said."
Exactly. It is the same a dreaming where the brain pieces together elements from memory to create the storyline or dream path. A sleepwalker could not get to the car and drive it without prior experience doing just that. Why can't sleepwalking be simply someone acting out aspects of a dream physically while remaining in a state of sleep? They can be woken up after all in the middle of the episode and may not remember what they were doing, or be confused initially, but it doesn't seem to be anything more than physically acting out a dream beyond the more common activities that occur while dreaming (eg. talking, making unusual movements while dreaming, etc.). It is just a more unusual version that some people (usually young people) can do and usually grow out of.
Because the activities of the sleepwalker require more than awareness of a dream. It involves reacting to external stimuli like avoiding hitting your mailbox while driving, etc. All of these aspects would be things outside of a dream.

EDIT for clarification: The awareness of a dream is irrelevant here. Being able to detect and respond to external stimuli, which does NOT require consciousness, is what's relevant. Even if the issue is awareness, you still have to factor in the point about responding to external stimuli, which is not part of a dream.
DrNoGods wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:36 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 12:32 pmSo we're still left with no proven function of consciousness in the body (although there are theories). I also take it that fetal behavior supports my point since the fetus can respond to stimuli, but some experts still don't consider that consciousness. One member here told me a newborn is not conscious until some 5 months after birth. So again, I fail to see why receiving and responding to sensory stimuli requires consciousness (i bring in sleepwalking to show the complex behaviors that can occur without consciousness).
If consciousness is an emergent property of the brain (as I believe), then there is no problem with the brain performing all kinds of subconsciouness functions in parallel with our consciousness awareness and purposeful functions. The hind brain can handle a lot of the low level functions (eg. maintaining breathing, responding to pain inputs, etc.) and we know there are many stimulus inputs that the brain reacts to but that don't cross the threshold of us being consciously aware of it (eg. the fast photo tests). So receiving and responding to all stimuli does not require a fully awake, aware level of consciousness ... plenty of that occurs continuously without us being aware of it or purposefully "thinking" to make it happen.
SO then, do you agree that complex behavior can be carried out without consciousness? If so, then what is the bodily purpose of consciousness?
DrNoGods wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:36 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 12:32 pmIf we really want to get theoretical here, what's to stop a scientists from creating a zombie? That alone would prove my case that the body can act without consciousness. I'd think that would be easier to do than creating a fully functioning human being with consciousness.
I'm not sure what a "zombie" is beyond some vague movie term for a created character. Is there a formal definition of a zombie?
Well just imagine a replica of a human being but one lacking consciousness. With the advent of cloning, I think it's very possible.
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Re: Does the body need consciousness?

Post #30

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #29]
SO then, do you agree that complex behavior can be carried out without consciousness? If so, then what is the bodily purpose of consciousness?
Sure ... by the brain doing things that don't involve our "thinking". Breathing is a good example of something that happens in both realms (as I understand your definitions of consciousness and unconsciousness).

We can decide (think) to take a breath, hold our breath, exhale, etc. entirely consciously. But the brain can manage the process perfectly well without us thinking about it or initiating the process. The level of CO2 in the blood is monitored by chemical receptors, and when the CO2 level gets too high the body (with presumably some interaction with the brain ... I'm no biologist or MD) will initiate muscle movement of the diaphram which creates a lower pressure inside the lungs than outside, and air rushes in through the nose and mouth (a breath is taken). Then the diaphram muscles are relaxed and the air (with about 10x more CO2 than was breathed in ... waste product from the body) is exhaled. This process will repeat if unconscious and I'd call that a complex process.

Consciousness can be just another "function" of the brain and the very complicated interactions with neurons, memory elements, chemical reactions, etc. It is a manifestation of those complex interactions that allow us to perceive things (the 5 senses) and have awareness of self, emotions, love, hate, and everything else that falls within the category of "consciousness." So I'd argue that the bodily purpose of consciousness is to create all of these things so that we can function at the level humans do. My dog is conscious and able to utilize its 5 senses and act like a dog, but he can't do calculus or compose a symphony and never will because his brain capacity does not allow it. He's conscious, but lacks the intelligence level of a human.

I don't see why consciousness gets treated as something special or magical. To me it seems perfectly reasonable that it is just a manifestation of brain function, even if we don't yet understand all of the mechanistic details of how it works at a molecular level.
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