Can we debate respectfully?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Sherlock Holmes

Can we debate respectfully?

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

I've listened to this debate several times over the years, it was broadcast by the BBC on radio a great many years ago.

Its a debate on the existence of God between two very respected intellectuals, Bertrand Russel and Frederick Copleston. Each of these men wrote a comprehensive history of philosophy and were well versed in philosophy, logic, history and so on, they were well matched.

What is striking is that neither party ever gets personal, they focus entirely on their opponents arguments, no petty insinuating, snide remarks or disparaging words.

Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell

If you prefer to skip the introductions and go right to the debate use this link.

Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell - No Intro

So the question - why do so many debates in the Science and Religion area often end up getting personal and stray away from the pure hard logic of the topic itself?

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #21

Post by otseng »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #20]

Actually, I find no hypocrisy with the operation of the forum and the Bible. The forum rules are clearly laid out and if people break the rules, they will be disciplined. If anybody wants to debate me about hypocrisy of the operation of the forum and the Bible, we can debate head-to-head.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #22

Post by JoeyKnothead »

My pologies if folks thought I was fussing about the forum's standards.

I was speaking strictly as relates to biblical proclamations and such in the "real world".

otseng and the mods have done a great job keeping our debates civil.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #23

Post by Inquirer »

Debating respectfully is a lofty goal indeed when forum "rules" are not applied impartially, which sadly is the case in this forum.

Of course moderators have limited time, it is a labor of love, they deserve our thanks, all of which is true.

But look how Eloi is now on a final warning (of course he has submitted some uncivil posts).

Yet John Doe routinely thumbs his nose at the forum rules and makes rude, disparaging and uncivil posts regularly and is reported for it.

These are all from recent posts made by John Doe (most if not all were reported)

"That's not only quite arrogant, but is very rude as well. It also reveals a level of intransigence that explains much of your behaviors here."

"Why are you struggling to grasp that?"

"On behalf of biologists.....stay in your own lane "Sherlock".

"Good grief man...you are so frustrating to talk with sometimes. Again I have to plead with you to.....pay attention!"


Are we expected to accept that NONE of these are uncivil? really?

John Doe is an impatient debater that's why he resorts to bullying and insults and focusing on his opponents supposed motives and beliefs and supposed "psychological profile", and the moderators just sit and watch, implicitly encouraging him to continue!

What did happen to the thread about a 6 Day Creation is that the thread was shutdown citing "Thread has resulted in too many rule violations. Closing the thread." really? rule violations? by whom? so why no mod warning posts calling out the violation as has happened with Eloi and others?

So no this forum cannot really support respectful debating when select parties are permitted to abuse the rules repeatedly yet those who report the violations are either ignored or find the entire discussion shutdown!

To top all this it is John Doe has the audacity to complain in this thread about the moderators! The bully who bullies the most actually complains about people "lying" and other imagined injustices!

So, sorry forum, I tried, I tried to abide by your rules, always report a violation don't argue with the violator and so on, don't question the moderators and so on, but that led nowhere, entire discussions are shutdown because someone has reported violations when all you had to do was warn the violator.

This isn't about John Doe's scientific views or arguments or beliefs, it is about him repeatedly violating over and over and being apparently protected by the moderation team.

Remember this is what was posted by a moderator recently:


What is absolutely not allowed on this forum are personal attacks. At all costs, do not comment on another poster. If someone attacks you, report it and do not respond to it.

But, what we are not OK with here is incivility of any kind

The primary purpose of this forum however is civility. And that is what will be cracked down on.

The forum rules are clearly laid out and if people break the rules, they will be disciplined.


Well people reported John Doe and zero was done about, eventually an entire thread that others were enjoying was shutdown and it even admitted "too many violations" yet oddly no violator, how strange...

I'd assumed that if one was uncivil and the post was reported then they'll get reprimanded and that policy was applied impartially whoever made the post, even a financial contributor. But it seems not, some get a slapping and other's get implicit encouragement to continue.

So enjoy your discussions, and do report violators to the moderators but don't bother reporting John Doe unless you're willing to see the thread shutdown!

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #24

Post by otseng »

[Replying to Inquirer in post #23]

You had asked for your account to be deleted and now you create another login to complain about the forum?

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #25

Post by Inquirer »

otseng wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:53 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #23]

You had asked for your account to be deleted and now you create another login to complain about the forum?
I was very much enjoying the forum, most people I engaged with were intelligent, polite yet firm and thought provoking. The reason I wanted my account deleted was that I reached a point of utter exasperation with what seems to be selective application of the forum rules finally causing a harmless and engaging thread to be shutdown.

Anyway, I've expressed my concerns to you several times over the past few weeks and seen just a perpetuation of the abuse and insults so stopped enjoying the forum. This is what repeated tolerance of uncivil, disparaging posts can do - encourage people to leave the forum.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #26

Post by otseng »

Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:03 pm This is what repeated tolerance of uncivil, disparaging posts can do - encourage people to leave the forum.
Rule violations are not tolerated, that's why the thread was shut down after numerous moderator interventions which seemed to have no effect.

But, my basic question is why are you coming back if you were so exasperated to have your account deleted?

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #27

Post by Inquirer »

otseng wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:03 pm This is what repeated tolerance of uncivil, disparaging posts can do - encourage people to leave the forum.
Rule violations are not tolerated, that's why the thread was shut down after numerous moderator interventions which seemed to have no effect.

But, my basic question is why are you coming back if you were so exasperated to have your account deleted?
I came back to post my thoughts about this with the hope it might be of some value. Perhaps it would be better to warn a violator say twice and then ban them from participating in the thread for some interval rather than shutting down the thread for everyone else, if the system supports such a capability...

I was suspended for a month and I did commit violations I accept that and like to think I respected that when my suspension was over, during my recent posting in the 6 Day thread I made an effort to avoid personal sniping despite provocations. I reported what I felt was a violation/insult to the moderators. I must have done that six or seven times yet no comments were ever made about those violating posts so they continued. It seems that reporting violations ultimately leads to a thread being shutdown so why bother even reporting them if that's the policy, why punish all the participants of a thread? why not just deal with the violator specifically as was done with me?

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #28

Post by Inquirer »

As for rule violations not being tolerated, this one is sitting out there for all to see:
Jose Fly wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:21 pmCan you please post like an actual adult (assuming you are one)?
I reported this myself too.

Not a peep from the moderators about that one!

Of course Eloi get's (rightfully) pulled up with an initial warning followed by final warning, yet his violations all occurred AFTER John Doe's insulting remark to him; perhaps - like I did - he sees John Doe trampling over all the rules saying whatever comes into his head and makes the mistake - like I did - of thinking if John Doe can talk like that to me then I can talk like that to him - but of course, no...

I understand its undesirable to openly discuss all this and there are things we may not know, but when reports are apparently ignored and one party gets a final warning while the other is left to carry on hurling insults over and over - what else can one do...

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #29

Post by Jose Fly »

otseng wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:53 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #23]

You had asked for your account to be deleted and now you create another login to complain about the forum?
"Sherlock Holmes" really did that? That's um.....interesting. :?

Kinda funny too. :P
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #30

Post by otseng »

Inquirer wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:52 pm I came back to post my thoughts about this with the hope it might be of some value. Perhaps it would be better to warn a violator say twice and then ban them from participating in the thread for some interval rather than shutting down the thread for everyone else, if the system supports such a capability...
Honestly, it's not really contributing any value. If people are really interested in promoting the standards of the forum, they should first uphold the rules themselves, not break the rules themselves and complain about others breaking the rules.
I must have done that six or seven times yet no comments were ever made about those violating posts so they continued.
You did that all in one shot prior to you being asked to be deleted. And it was on top of many other open violations that were reported on other posters in the thread. What else can be done besides shutting down the thread? Continue to give each person a comment/warning, when I've already issued the following in the thread?

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079767&hi ... g#p1079767
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079554&hi ... g#p1079554
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079543&hi ... g#p1079543
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079401&hi ... g#p1079401
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079170&hi ... g#p1079170
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1079105&hi ... g#p1079105
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1078897&hi ... g#p1078897
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1078896&hi ... g#p1078896
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1071756&hi ... g#p1071756
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1071191&hi ... g#p1071191
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1070581&hi ... g#p1070581
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1070414&hi ... g#p1070414
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39108&p=1069814&hi ... g#p1069814

How many comments and warnings do I need to give before anybody heeds any of them?

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