I've listened to this debate several times over the years, it was broadcast by the BBC on radio a great many years ago.
Its a debate on the existence of God between two very respected intellectuals, Bertrand Russel and Frederick Copleston. Each of these men wrote a comprehensive history of philosophy and were well versed in philosophy, logic, history and so on, they were well matched.
What is striking is that neither party ever gets personal, they focus entirely on their opponents arguments, no petty insinuating, snide remarks or disparaging words.
Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell
If you prefer to skip the introductions and go right to the debate use this link.
Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell - No Intro
So the question - why do so many debates in the Science and Religion area often end up getting personal and stray away from the pure hard logic of the topic itself?
Can we debate respectfully?
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- Clownboat
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #41So you claim to see this, yet failed when challenged to show it was happening.
For the readers, again here was the challenge:
Now we are on to something! In the post (#35) you quoted, please copy/paste where I commented on your character and motives. I think we would all benefit from seeing just how this leads to not being able to debate respectfully.
Oh well...
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
- Inquirer
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #42These are snippets of things you've said:Clownboat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:13 pmSo you claim to see this, yet failed when challenged to show it was happening.
For the readers, again here was the challenge:
Now we are on to something! In the post (#35) you quoted, please copy/paste where I commented on your character and motives. I think we would all benefit from seeing just how this leads to not being able to debate respectfully.
Oh well...
The clear insinuation that I have some desire to be perceived as "persecuted" runs through your remarks, these are uncivil provocative remarks that have no place in polite reasoned discourse.Perhaps that is why some believers come to this forum, to get them their perceived persecution so they can feel like they are doing Christianity correctly?
Your error in thinking that Christianity has anything to do with such thinking though, assuming that is why you mention 'As a Christian' above.
Want to consider yourself (generic) a good Christian, make sure you can identify some persecution in your life.
It is hard to debate respectfully when there are those seeking to 'see' persecution in their lives. So you disagree?
So stop discussing me and discuss the subject please, else I'll have nothing more to say to you in this thread.
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #43None of that is me making claims about your character and/or motives.Inquirer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:48 pmThese are snippets of things you've said:Clownboat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:13 pmSo you claim to see this, yet failed when challenged to show it was happening.
For the readers, again here was the challenge:
Now we are on to something! In the post (#35) you quoted, please copy/paste where I commented on your character and motives. I think we would all benefit from seeing just how this leads to not being able to debate respectfully.
Oh well...
The clear insinuation that I have some desire to be perceived as "persecuted" runs through your remarks, these are uncivil provocative remarks that have no place in polite reasoned discourse.Perhaps that is why some believers come to this forum, to get them their perceived persecution so they can feel like they are doing Christianity correctly?
Your error in thinking that Christianity has anything to do with such thinking though, assuming that is why you mention 'As a Christian' above.
Want to consider yourself (generic) a good Christian, make sure you can identify some persecution in your life.
It is hard to debate respectfully when there are those seeking to 'see' persecution in their lives. So you disagree?
So stop discussing me and discuss the subject please, else I'll have nothing more to say to you in this thread.
You did bold some pronouns though.
Readers, consider specifially some of what transpired:
Copy/Paste: Clownboat = "Have you ever attended a church that claimed that if you are not being persecuted, you are not being good Christian?
I did and I can see how such teachings could create persecution complexes. Want to consider yourself (generic) a good Christian, make sure you can identify some persecution in your life."
A real life scenario that I personally lived through is being taken as being disrespectful, even when I clarified that the 'yourself' was a generic yourself and specifically not directed at the poster in question.
Should I feel disrespected for having my real life scenario be ignored and turned into a personal attack? Oh the irony.
I submit that reacting in such a way to a personal, real life scenario does make debating respectfully difficult. How dare I relay an experience I had afterall.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #44Because nobody knows what the truth is and everyone's insecure about it.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 4:49 pmSo the question - why do so many debates in the Science and Religion area often end up getting personal and stray away from the pure hard logic of the topic itself?
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #45[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #1]
I blame the New Atheist movement for it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism
Some of them came across as smug, patronizing, and antagonistic.
I blame the New Atheist movement for it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism
Some of them came across as smug, patronizing, and antagonistic.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #46Let's see. The poster asking the OP question, Sherlock Holmes, racked up 9 Moderator Warnings before changing their ID to Inquirer. Under that ID they've received 5 Moderator Comments.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:10 am [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #1]
I blame the New Atheist movement for it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism
Some of them came across as smug, patronizing, and antagonistic.
The poster known as We Are VENOM has received a total of 2 Moderator Warnings, one a final Warning, and 20 Moderator Comments.
Neither, as far as I know, identify as New Atheists. I suspect the problem lies elsewhere.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #47It can't possibly have it to do with Christians imposing their beliefs by the sword, the courts, or their sacred slanders and insults.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:10 am [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #1]
I blame the New Atheist movement for it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism
Some of them came across as smug, patronizing, and antagonistic.
For hundreds of years.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #48Joey sheepishly slinks down in his desk.Tcg wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:55 am Let's see. The poster asking the OP question, Sherlock Holmes, racked up 9 Moderator Warnings before changing their ID to Inquirer. Under that ID they've received 5 Moderator Comments.
The poster known as We Are VENOM has received a total of 2 Moderator Warnings, one a final Warning, and 20 Moderator Comments.
Neither, as far as I know, identify as New Atheists. I suspect the problem lies elsewhere.
Tcg
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #49Yeah and while you are busy tallying up strikes and technical fouls of certain posters, check the Christian/Atheist ratio on the moderation board.Tcg wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:55 am Let's see. The poster asking the OP question, Sherlock Holmes, racked up 9 Moderator Warnings before changing their ID to Inquirer. Under that ID they've received 5 Moderator Comments.
The poster known as We Are VENOM has received a total of 2 Moderator Warnings, one a final Warning, and 20 Moderator Comments.
Most of the moderators are atheists..and most of those reporting (basically, snitching) on our posts are our debate opponents, who are also atheists.
So you have atheists reporting to atheists.
Doesn't seem transparent to me.
Yeah, I suspect the problem lies with members getting dinged for little to nothing.Neither, as far as I know, identify as New Atheists. I suspect the problem lies elsewhere.
Tcg
I just got dinged for accusing a poster of splitting hairs. SMH.
So basically, someone said "it goes against forum rules to accuse someone of making unnecessary distinctions". (which is all splitting hairs means)
If you cant say "Splitting hairs at its finest" (which is all I said)...then what can you say?
I make a lot of atheists uncomfortable on here, and on a forum filled with the opposing party also acting as the authorities, it is only a matter of time before I get MLK'ed, or Jesus Christ'ed.
Thats what happens when you ruffle the wrong feathers.
You get JFK'ed.
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?
Post #50?We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:05 am If you cant say "Splitting hairs at its finest" (which is all I said)...then what can you say?
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin