Let's talk about "speciation"

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Eloi
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Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

That word "speciation" is mentioned a lot by evolutionists on the forum. It seems that it is the way they (the experts) call the transformation of a species into another, a diferent one. How a real ANOTHER SPECIES can the new animal be?

What are the real conditions for something like REAL new species coming out of previous species to occur naturally? Like: What real relationship can there be between a cow and a whale, other than an imaginary magical story?

Reading this
brunumb wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 8:01 pm(...) the mountain of confirming evidence that has been collected and tested. (...)
all the time, but none of that "evidence" have been shown anywhere here ... ;) Maybe we can see the real thing behind all these verbiage ...

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Re: Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #31

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #30]

In response to your post I have edited mine.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #32

Post by Bust Nak »

Eloi wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:25 pm what are the criteria used by experts in taxonomically classifying a bone as belonging to a normal ape, ape-man, or a human?
Basically by how it looks and where it is found.
What is the difference between speciation and macroevolution?
There is none. Speciation and macroevolution describe the same phenomenon - evolutionary change beyond the species level.

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Miles
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Re: Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #33

Post by Miles »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:04 am
Eloi wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:25 pm What is the difference between speciation and macroevolution?
There is none. Speciation and macroevolution describe the same phenomenon - evolutionary change beyond the species level.

"Speciation is the process by which one or more species arises from a common ancestor, and “macroevolution” refers to patterns and processes at and above the species level –"

source


A fuller explanation:

"Speciations results from the natural selection of preexisting variation within the DNA of an organism. Macroevolution requires the formation of new information.

An example of speciation would be the variation of Finches on the Galapagos Islands. A small population of one type of finch arrived on the volcanic islands where the finches faced a new environment with many unfilled niches. The finches evolved into 13 different types of finches occupying different niches. These different species of finches can and do hybridize interbreeding with each other. There is no new genetic information required for this type of speciation.

An example of macroevolution is the transition from flying reptiles to birds. Scales need to be changed into feathers, cold blooded metabolism to hot blooded metabolism. Radically different proteins and physical structures need to be produced. New and unique types of information need to be produced.

Darwinian evolution extrapolates from the observations of speciation to the theory of common descent and macroevolution."

source

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Re: Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #34

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to Miles in post #33]

The article says the key distinction is the origin of new or novel information and uses the evolution of finches as an example of speciation but not macroevolution. It claims there is no new genetic information required for this type of speciation. Sounds wrong to me. There is genetic information difference between parent species and daughter species, what do you call genetic information in the daughter but not the parent, if not "new?"

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Re: Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #35

Post by Miles »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:27 pm [Replying to Miles in post #33]

The article says the key distinction is the origin of new or novel information and uses the evolution of finches as an example of speciation but not macroevolution. It claims there is no new genetic information required for this type of speciation. Sounds wrong to me. There is genetic information difference between parent species and daughter species, what do you call genetic information in the daughter but not the parent, if not "new?"
Good question. My bad for grabbing a definition without examining its wording.

.

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Re: Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #36

Post by The Barbarian »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:27 pm [Replying to Miles in post #33]

The article says the key distinction is the origin of new or novel information and uses the evolution of finches as an example of speciation but not macroevolution. It claims there is no new genetic information required for this type of speciation. Sounds wrong to me. There is genetic information difference between parent species and daughter species, what do you call genetic information in the daughter but not the parent, if not "new?"
Technically, "microevolution" is evolution within a species, and "macroevolution" is the evolution of new taxa. Speciation, and above.

A lot of people talk about genetic information, but most people don't know how to determine such information. Information is calculated by a method first used by Claude Shannon. It turns out that any new mutation in a population will increase genetic information in that population. If anyone is interested in the details, I'd be happy to oblige.

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Re: Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #37

Post by Bust Nak »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:21 pm Can you please post like an actual adult (assuming you are one)?
:warning: Moderator Warning


A bit late, but... please don't make personal remarks.

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Re: Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #38

Post by AquinasForGod »

[Replying to Eloi in post #1]

Have you ever looked at a dolphin and whales arms? They look like flippers, right? Look at the skeleton. They have all the same bones as us landwalkers have, scapula, collarbone, humorous, ulna, phalanges, etc.

Image Dolphin skeleton

Image two whales two sharks.

Can you tell which ones are the whales? You should be able to if you know what a scapular and phalanges (finger bones) look like. They are mammals of the sea like seals and otters.

Seals have flippers, but you can see the fingers a bit - Image

Now look at the seal skeleton - Image

Seals retain their hip bone, tibia, fibula, etc.

Is it that far-fetched to think that the reason dolphins and whales have ALL the same bones land walking mammals have is because they used to be a land walker?

So sharks are fish. Is this a fish or a mammal?

Image

And its skeleton

Image


It doesn't seem far out to me that land walking mammals evolved into sea-dwelling mammals.

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Re: Let's talk about "speciation"

Post #39

Post by The Barbarian »

AquinasForGod wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:21 am [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

Have you ever looked at a dolphin and whales arms? They look like flippers, right? Look at the skeleton. They have all the same bones as us landwalkers have, scapula, collarbone, humorous, ulna, phalanges, etc.

Image Dolphin skeleton

Image two whales two sharks.

Can you tell which ones are the whales? You should be able to if you know what a scapular and phalanges (finger bones) look like.
This is great. Nicely shows the differences between analogy and homology. Sharks and whales are analogous, looking similar and functioning in many of the same ways. Land mammals and whales are homologous, having the same sturctures and motions, albeit modified to different things. Land mammal ancestry explains whale characteristics like limb bones, swimming motion, breathing, and digestive systems.

Well done.

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