Is the Bible anti-evolution?

[harvey1]

Perhaps the most unquestioned assumptions assertions by many fundamentalist Christians is that the Bible is anti-evolution. This assumption is wrong. The Bible clearly asserts evolution with this Genesis 1 scripture:

Genesis 1:11

"Then God said, 'Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is it itself, on the earth'; and it was so"

Genesis 3:17

"Then to Adam [God] said, 'Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it'..."

Now, you can't have it two ways. Either God commanded the earth, and the earth did as it was told and created life in an earthly manner (naturally), or God's commands are not real commands and therefore Adam is not responsible for breaking them.

[harvey1]

You are going to have to explain to me what you mean by spiritual creation.
I don’t believe spirit has been created. I believe it has co-existed with God From the Beginning.
I do not see the Matthew 13:3 parable as being about creation. I see it as being about nourishing what already exists. The seeds are Jesus’ words, his teachings. Sometimes his teachings just don’t get through to us, sometime they do. Sometimes they get through, but we ignore them, and they wither. Sometimes they reach us and we live them.
I believe we have a spitirual conciouness before we ever hear the first message of Jesus.

Christians are new creations in Christ (II Cor. 5:17). They are ambassadors of a new heavens and a new earth (vs. 20; II Peter 3:13: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness".). In addition, Jesus contrasts earthly things with heavenly things (John 3:12; John 3:31) which shows that comparing earthly creation to that of heavenly creation is justified.

[BeHereNow]

Sorry, I just don't see it.
I think you need someone to ask questions from a different direction.

[Midwestguy]

I freely admit this is getting off the track, but appreciate your indulgence. Harvey 1 mentioned the existence of the "Evil One" in this discussion about evolution.

Is this "Evil One" the same as Satan? If so, was this "Evil One" created by God? Where in the Bible will I find clear information about the origins of the "Evil One"?

Respectfully,

Midwest Guy

[BeHereNow]

If so, was this "Evil One" created by God? Where in the Bible will I find clear information about the origins of the "Evil One"?

Now that is a good question(s)!
I did a quick search of this board using the handy search tool. I started with “devil” and found a thread entitled
"Where did Lucifer come from?", With the opening question “If Satan is/was a fallen angel, why wasn't the battle in Heaven mentioned in Genesis?” This is a 5 page thread (somewhat long) that ran in Sept & Oct of this year. We (you and I) need to read this so that we don’t “reinvent the wheel”. There may be other threads equally relevant but I did not search any deeper.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ight=devil
There is no problem resurrecting that thread by making a new post, or one of us can start fresh.
Briefly, the “myth” (myth is a story, may be true, maybe not) of satan starts in Genesis, is referred to by Jesus in a few vague references, and many use Revelations to complete the picture. All in all The Bible leaves a lot to the imagination. “Lucifer” is of course the “Angel of Light”. Satan, Devil, Beelzebub, same guy.

Are you competent using search tools? There are some nice online copies of the Bible with great search tools. Just do a google search for “kjv bible” (no quotes necessary, KJV is my preference, you can find others). Also as I hinted you can use the search tool from this site to search this site only. If you are an internet newbie, inexperienced using search tools, we’ll get you some help, just ask.
Welcome aboard and happy debating!

[harvey1]

I freely admit this is getting off the track, but appreciate your indulgence. Harvey 1 mentioned the existence of the "Evil One" in this discussion about evolution. Is this "Evil One" the same as Satan? If so, was this "Evil One" created by God? Where in the Bible will I find clear information about the origins of the "Evil One"?

I won't repeat what has already been used to support the biblical belief of Satan, however as it pertains to this thread, I personally see an important relationship between Satan and natural selection.

The Bible personifies certain principles that 'exist', and those principles are personified to provide a better understanding of the principles. However, I think it is a mistake to think in such primitive terms as Satan as a 'person'. To be exact, Satan is an opposing force. See for example:

"Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." (Matt. 16:23)

Peter was perhaps shocked at such a statement. He was trying to do good and Jesus called him Satan. If Satan were a person, then either Peter was possessed (which there is no biblical support for that view), or Jesus was referring to something else. Here is what I consider to be a more accurate view of Satan:

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Eph. 6:12)

The head of the spiritual forces of evil is Satan (the devil):

"But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils." (Matt. 12:24)

In addition to being a spiritual adversary force to God, Satan also represents an evil wisdom:

"Such 'wisdom' does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil." (Jas 3:15)

In terms of scripture, Satan represents an adversarial wisdom that is deviant. This adversarial wisdom is actually a personification of death, decay, and the struggle for existence (key aspects of natural selection):

"The LORD said to Satan, 'Where have you come from?' Satan answered the LORD , 'From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.' (Job 1:7)

"in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air" (Eph. 2:2)

"he might destroy him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil" (Heb. 2:14)

"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." (Rom 8:20-22)

My conclusion is that Satan does exist in the form of a principality, or natural logic of nature. Nature conforms to this naturalistic logic (or earthly way), and that this opposing force of nature is what is being personified by Satan. That's not to say that there isn't a consciousness behind this personified wisdom, rather, I think this principle of 'adversarial-ness' roams every situation (even that of the conscious mind) and seeks to pull such actions and thoughts of humans toward evil. It is not the kiind of consciousness of individuality that humans possess, it is more of a group consciousness that is 'roaming the earth, and going back and forth in it". Not an individual, but not non-existent either. Certainly not a force you can have a conversation with and explain the demerits of their behavior. It is a kind of logic that encompasses the natural world. A logic, I believe, will eventually be overthrown by a higher logic that is the Creator.

[Midwestguy]

Thanks to BeHereNow and Harvey1 for their insights. I read the 5 page discussion which, at times, degenerated into a personal feud, regarding the origins of Satan.

The fundamental question which seems to be unanswered is why would the God of the universe create evil or, at the very least, allow evil to exist?

From my limited readings, it seems the idea of an "evil one" or "Satan" evolved especially after the exile of the Southern Kingdom leaders into Babylon. The theory is that the leaders of the two remaining tribes (Judah and Benjamin) were faced with the dilemma of explaining how they were the chosen people yet stuck in Babylon. While debating this issue, they came across the idea the Babylonians believed about a titanic ongoing battle between gods representing good and evil.

This made sense to the leaders who incorporated the idea into their theology. It helped explain how they wound up in Babylon. It was the work of Satan by having all those other tempting religions around (Baal and Asherah, for example). By allowing or tolerating these competing religions, people turned from God and God's blessing. Therefore, it was only a matter of time before God would allow them to be conquered by some other nation.

Since they were monotheistic, they couldn't support the idea of a rival god, so Satan was described as a fallen angel. The book of Enoch goes into much detail about this. Since Enoch is not part of the Bible, it is often ignored or unknown among Christians.

So, at the risk of raising another shouting match similar to the one earlier, I ask what anyone thinks of this theory. Does it make sense? Is it totally off the mark? If so, how is it off the mark?

Thanks for your indulgence.

Midwest Guy

[Lotan]

Hi Midwestguy

My understanding of the exile in Babylon was that in response to the fear of some Israelites that god had forsaken them, a theology was developed that said god still loved them, but as a sign of his love, was punishing them.
Satan does evolve, from god's gopher (in Job), to a more malevolent and independent character in the NT. I don't really know enough about Satan to say whether I agree with that theory or not, although it is interesting. Elaine Pagels has a somewhat different theory, perhaps the real story contains elements of both. In either case I'm glad to see someone raise this type of discussion. Welcome.

[BeHereNow]

I think you need to start a new thread (actully I know you do).
This is the creationism vs evolution category, and your subject does not fit. You need a new category. I would suggest "Christianity". As a title something like "Theory of the origin of Satan" with the second line something like "Does this work?, from book of Enoch". You may have a better title in mind.

If you post it, I will come.
Probably others as well.

I would copy and paste your previous post to use as an introduction. I think you explain yourself very well. Expect traditional Christians to question your use of Enoch. You will need to defend it as ligitimate, which may be difficult.

The fundamental question which seems to be unanswered is why would the God of the universe create evil or, at the very least, allow evil to exist?

This is the kind of question that can only be answered by yourself. You can listen to others, but many of the answers they have will not work for you. You can use the same post to introduce this question, or start two different threads. I'm not sure which is best, probably two threads. Give substantial background or introduction in your first post.

[harvey1]

The fundamental question which seems to be unanswered is why would the God of the universe create evil or, at the very least, allow evil to exist?... Since they were monotheistic, they couldn't support the idea of a rival god, so Satan was described as a fallen angel. The book of Enoch goes into much detail about this. Since Enoch is not part of the Bible, it is often ignored or unknown among Christians.

I'm not sure how Satan evolved in Hebrew thought, however, if I had to take a guess, my guess is that the trenchery of king of Tyre was personified as evil, and that this kind of personification soon evolved into a conception of evil being personified. If you look at the pre-captivity texts, the nation of Tyre is depicted as rejoicing in Judah's defeat (Ezekiel 26:2). The book of Ezekiel makes a prophecy about the king of Tyre and his evil mentality, which is often considered to make reference to the pride of Lucifer prior to his fall (Ezekiel 28). Notice the way in which evil is personified in this text:

"" 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching. All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.' "

This is not the only personification that began with the captivity. Wisdom was also personified, and this eventually evolved into Messianic beliefs (e.g., the ode of Solomon, etc).

The thing to keep in mind is that even though scriptural beliefs evolved naturally due to the experiences of the people living in Judea, this by itself does not mean those beliefs are incorrect. Actually, it is experiences combined with deep thought which is the basis for inspiration. As beliefs evolve they encounter facts that contradict those beliefs (or do not match up perfectly with those beliefs), and this creates a need to modify and find those gems in one's beliefs that are true of the ages. Evolutionary theory is no exception. As Christians encounter new scientific theories, it is often necessary to review the aspects of their beliefs that need to be reviewed and adjusted to accommodate the facts.

This is how religious beliefs are actually made to be more precise. It's my view that Satan is a necessary doctrine of Christianity and without the past experiences of the Jews, it probably would not have evolved. I see the fact that it did evolve as inspirational, and as a result, it makes understanding the nature of the world in terms of evolution all the more precise. I think without understanding Satan, one simply cannot explain evolutionary processes and why God would use natural selection as a chief mechanism for species adaptation.

As to why God would create evil, I think evil is necessitated by God's existence. If you look at evolutionary algorithms, these are some of the most efficient algorithms to find solutions to problems (and are being used to solve engineering problems), so it does not surprise me that evil exists as a matter of pure efficiency. It is only when you start paying a price for efficiency in the way of pain and suffering that evil is recognized, and that's something that must be curtailed somehow. Jesus addressed this issue of evil within a natural universe and this is how the Lord answers those having this question:

"Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' " 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " (Matt. 13:24-30)

The universe evolved from 'seeds' (probably quantum fluctuations) but evil also evolved with our universe (i.e., the universe evolves according to some naturalistic algorithms that encompass 'Satan'). God is evidently taking the approach that it is more important to have a universe even though it has undesirable elements (e.g., death and decay), rather than skuttle the whole universe at this time. However, at some point comes the 'harvest' at which time the elements of the universe which are good will be saved while the elements that are not good will be discarded. Unfortunately we don't know all the options and necessary factors that went into this decision, we just have to accept on faith that God knows best and be patient while the universe evolves under the harsh conditions. However, liberty is soon to be:

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently." (Rom 8:19-25)