Can i call homosexuality a sin?

[OpenYourEyes]

Some have implied that I'm a homophobe or bigot just because I called homosexuality a 'sin'. If so that would make Christian beliefs held by billions of people a sin.

But then i found this from an admin. which is compatible with the rules.

.
Let me say that attacking homosexuality is tolerated here. Any belief system is allowed to be attacked. This includes homosexuality, Christianity, atheism, etc.

Homosexuality is a particularly sensitive topic. It is probably the most contentious issue on the forum since the very founding of this place. Many people attempt to skirt the line of personally attacking another when debating this issue. But really the only time a moderator would step in is when the line is crossed of personally attacking another.

So i can attack homosexuality in a 'civil' manner w/out having to be labelled a bigot and w/out violating forum rules, right Zzyzx?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 34 by Danmark]

I don't want to be involved - anyone can get married to anyone or thing as far as I care - let's get the state out of marriage.

[OpenYourEyes]

But can't you understand that gay people would find it offensive to be thrown into the same category as criminals who commit rape and incest? Homosexuality is simply not comparable with rape and incest in anyway whatsoever. Also, I don't think there's any problem with expressing disapproval of homosexuality and arguing against things like gay marriage or gay adoption. People here do it all the time.

I understand some are offended by Christian beliefs but that doesnt mean we restrict it or water it down.

The reason you say that homosexuality is not comparable to incest would have to be because you dont see it as a sin. If homosexuality is a sin, then why wouldnt it be just like any other sin?

[Danmark]

But can't you understand that gay people would find it offensive to be thrown into the same category as criminals who commit rape and incest? Homosexuality is simply not comparable with rape and incest in anyway whatsoever. Also, I don't think there's any problem with expressing disapproval of homosexuality and arguing against things like gay marriage or gay adoption. People here do it all the time.

I understand some are offended by Christian beliefs but that doesnt mean we restrict it or water it down.

The reason you say that homosexuality is not comparable to incest would have to be because you dont see it as a sin. If homosexuality is a sin, then why wouldnt it be just like any other sin?

Many Christians do not see homosexuality as a sin, and an even greater number think it is time to move on and accord full civil rights, even to "sinners."

As has been pointed out to you before, the Bible has long lists of prohibited behaviors, many of which carry the death penalty, and none of which is in the Decalogue. Despite your claim, polygamy is not a sin. Neither is pedophilia; however, wearing a shirt of mixed fabrics IS a sin. Society and Christians and Jews have moved on and interpret the Bible in light of scientific and common sense discoveries. The Roman Catholic church has revised its view and now agrees the Earth orbits the Sun, not the other way round.

This debate about sins was settled a long time ago:

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?�
And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
This is the great and first commandment.
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.�

Matthew 22:34-40

[OpenYourEyes]

But can't you understand that gay people would find it offensive to be thrown into the same category as criminals who commit rape and incest? Homosexuality is simply not comparable with rape and incest in anyway whatsoever. Also, I don't think there's any problem with expressing disapproval of homosexuality and arguing against things like gay marriage or gay adoption. People here do it all the time.

I understand some are offended by Christian beliefs but that doesnt mean we restrict it or water it down.

The reason you say that homosexuality is not comparable to incest would have to be because you dont see it as a sin. If homosexuality is a sin, then why wouldnt it be just like any other sin?

Many Christians do not see homosexuality as a sin, and an even greater number think it is time to move on and accord full civil rights, even to "sinners."

As has been pointed out to you before, the Bible has long lists of prohibited behaviors, many of which carry the death penalty, and none of which is in the Decalogue. Despite your claim, polygamy is not a sin. Neither is pedophilia; however, wearing a shirt of mixed fabrics IS a sin. Society and Christians and Jews have moved on and interpret the Bible in light of scientific and common sense discoveries. The Roman Catholic church has revised its view and now agrees the Earth orbits the Sun, not the other way round.

This debate about sins was settled a long time ago:

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?�
And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
This is the great and first commandment.
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.�

Matthew 22:34-40

True that many dont but it should not come as a surprise that many do see it as a sin. Can you blame them when plenty of Bibles use the word "homosexuality" and the long time tradition of the Catholic Church to condemn same-sex behavior.

At best we can say that there are two Christian beliefs or perspectives on the matter.

My main point is that if it is a sin, as many Christians believe based on Catholic doctrine, tradition, and translation, then why wouldnt it be just like any other sin?

[OpenYourEyes]

For instance, Otseng said im allowed to quote 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. So basically i cant equate homosexuality to other sins unless i reference a passage with it. If not offending homosexuals is the standard then I dont see any consistency or point in allowing one but not the other.

You can NOT appease both homosexual sensitivities and freedom to express traditional Christian beliefs. They inherently conflict. Politicians have an incentive to deny that, not sure whats the case here.

[Danmark]

My main point is that if it is a sin, as many Christians believe based on Catholic doctrine, tradition, and translation, then why wouldnt it be just like any other sin?

Jesus has already answered the question, as I mentioned in my last post.

I'll rephrase your question:
Why wouldn't wearing a blended fabric shirt be just like any other sin including murder?

Matthew 22 presents this very discussion you are resurrecting 2000 years later. First the Sadducees, then the Pharisees tried to trick Jesus on this very point you are making. Even the smartest among them, a lawyer tried and failed. It is plain that Jesus was telling them, to quit their over technical legalizing and love their neighbors.

We see this same spirit when He tells the story of the two men who went forward to pray. The one who accuses comes off poorly while the 'poor sinner' is justified.

We see this spirit again in His admonition to not cast stones unless you are without sin. We see it in His directive not to judge 'lest ye be judged.'

One could even say that the entire spirit of the best of Christianity is a movement toward love and principle and away from the legalisms of the the law. Jesus condemned the attitude of the Sadducees and Pharisees, but that attitude persists despite His efforts. We would do better not to focus on the speck in our brothers' eye, and first tend to the beam in our own.

[OpenYourEyes]

My main point is that if it is a sin, as many Christians believe based on Catholic doctrine, tradition, and translation, then why wouldnt it be just like any other sin?

Jesus has already answered the question, as I mentioned in my last post.

I'll rephrase your question:
Why wouldn't wearing a blended fabric shirt be just like any other sin including murder?

Matthew 22 presents this very discussion you are resurrecting 2000 years later. First the Sadducees, then the Pharisees tried to trick Jesus on this very point you are making. Even the smartest among them, a lawyer [naturally ] tried and failed. It is plain that Jesus was telling them, to quit their over technical legalizing and love their neighbors.

We see this same spirit when He tells the story of the two men who went forward to pray. The one who accuses comes off poorly while the 'poor sinner' is justified.

We see this spirit again in His admonition to not cast stones unless you are without sin. We see it in His directive not to judge 'lest ye be judged.'

One could even say that the entire spirit of the best of Christianity is a movement toward love and principle and away from the legalisms of the the law. Jesus condemned the attitude of the Sadducees and Pharisees, but that attitude persists despite His efforts. We would do better not to focus on the speck in our brothers' eye, and first tend to the beam in our own.

Christian belief is not comprised on your intetpretation nor only on what Jesus covered which isnt everything. The apostles continued the teachings even beyond the bible. If you study Church history, you would realize traditional Christian and even Jewish beliefs on the matter.

[Danmark]

For instance, Otseng said im allowed to quote 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. So basically i cant equate homosexuality to other sins unless i reference a passage with it. If not offending homosexuals is the standard then I dont see any consistency or point in allowing one but not the other.

You can NOT appease both homosexual sensitivities and freedom to express traditional Christian beliefs. They inherently conflict. Politicians have an incentive to deny that, not sure whats the case here.

You were given very clear direction back on post #3 when Otseng replied to your question:

OYE asked:

So i can attack homosexuality in a 'civil' manner w/out having to be labelled a bigot and w/out violating forum rules...?

Otseng replied:

Yes, this is possible, but it's not easy.

I think the key is the tone of your posts. If people discern that you are here to preach against homosexuals . . . to attack homosexuality, then it'll be read as a personal attack.

You'll need to evaluate everything that you post, esp when posting something that someone can take personally. How would people interpret what I say? Am I being respectful to other forum members? Can I back up everything I claim? Am I coming across that I'm just here to preach?

[emphasis applied]
It does appear that you are here only to preach against homosexuals and to attack homosexuality. Looking at your posts as reflected on your profile it looks like at least 90% of your posts are on homosexuality and virtually all of the subtopics you've started are about homosexuality [except those you started to complain about the forum or the way it is moderated].

[OpenYourEyes]

For instance, Otseng said im allowed to quote 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. So basically i cant equate homosexuality to other sins unless i reference a passage with it. If not offending homosexuals is the standard then I dont see any consistency or point in allowing one but not the other.

You can NOT appease both homosexual sensitivities and freedom to express traditional Christian beliefs. They inherently conflict. Politicians have an incentive to deny that, not sure whats the case here.

You were given very clear direction back on post #3 when Otseng replied to your question:

OYE asked:

So i can attack homosexuality in a 'civil' manner w/out having to be labelled a bigot and w/out violating forum rules...?

Otseng replied:

Yes, this is possible, but it's not easy.

I think the key is the tone of your posts. If people discern that you are here to preach against homosexuals . . . to attack homosexuality, then it'll be read as a personal attack.

You'll need to evaluate everything that you post, esp when posting something that someone can take personally. How would people interpret what I say? Am I being respectful to other forum members? Can I back up everything I claim? Am I coming across that I'm just here to preach?

[emphasis applied]
It does appear that you are here only to preach against homosexuals and to attack homosexuality. Looking at your posts as reflected on your profile it looks like at least 90% of your posts are on homosexuality and virtually all of the subtopics you've started are about it.

I already know that i can atrack homosexuality in general, but not a specific person. But now Otseng has restricted even general attack in some cases.

As i said earlier, you can not appease both homosexual sensitivities and traditional Christian beliefs. Since i cant get a response that makes sense, i have no choice but to consider 'appeasement' as a possible reason for restricting my point about homosexuality being like any other sin.

[otseng]

I'm going to post one FINAL time on this thread. If you do not understand after this, I'd suggest for you to find another forum to debate homosexuality on.

Attacking homosexuality is allowed on this forum, provided it is done in a civil manner.

Saying homosexuality is a sin is allowed (though technically, it would be the "practice" of homosexuality, not just homosexuality itself). Saying "homosexuality is like all other sins" is allowed. Even quoting 1 Cor 6:9-10 is allowed ("Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people--none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.")

What is problematic is picking certain (criminal) sins and then comparing them to homosexuality ("All sins, pedophilia, polygamy, incest are as equally sinful as homosexuality").

Yes, all sins are equally sinful. That is not an issue. But, it can be considered inflammatory to just compare it to pedophilia, polygamy, incest. These are not even directly mentioned in 1 Cor 6:9-10. And you left out any of the other sins listed.

What is important here is civility. There has to be a balance between freedom to debate issues openly and being respectful of others. We cannot be so free that we can say anything on our minds. We cannot be so restrictive that everything that we say has to be politically correct.

I'm also beginning to get the impression that debating homosexuality is really what you are only after here. That in itself is not against the rules, but it's not going to garner respect from other forum members here.

Since we've had multiple discussions on this via PM and this is my final post on this, I'll be locking this thread.