Debating Then Complaining About Those Who Disagree

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Jagella
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Debating Then Complaining About Those Who Disagree

Post #1

Post by Jagella »

I don't know about the other members here, but I see a debate as an exchange of conflicting ideas. It is understood from the outset that there is a disagreement, and both debaters have the opportunity to present their position on the issue being debated. However, not everybody appears to agree with my approach to debate. Here's a snippet from Overcomer that was recently posted on my
Is Christian Apologetics anti-Jewish? thread:
Overcomer wrote:The problem I see with you, Jagella, is that you only see things as black (any and everything Christian) and white (any and everything non-Christian). Christians can do no good and are all evil while atheists do good and are good according to what you write here in this forum. It is such a heavy bias, totally unfair and unjustifiable, but it seems like your hatred and anger won't let you see things differently. I see that in some other atheists here as well, but, blessedly, not in all the non-believers who frequent this site.
Before I go on let me make clear that I'm not in this forum to make friends or tickle anybody's ears or win any popularity contests, and neither am I here to make my point of view believable and respectable. Rather, I'm here to debate the topics relevant to Christianity and arrive at the truth regarding what can be logically concluded about those topics relevant to Christianity.

Overcomer obviously has a different reason to debate here. It appears that he has little tolerance for disagreement especially anything that's unflattering to his Christian faith. I'm guessing that he's here to evangelize and wants people to say good things about his brand of Christianity. If he doesn't get it, then he gets upset.

Anyway, I'm wondering why so many of the other members here as well as the mods frequent this forum. Do you have the same goal in mind that I do, or do you have some other reason to debate here? Here's a list of possible reasons to debate here:
  • 1. Have fun!
    2. Evangelize Christianity
    3. Boost One's Christian Faith
    4. Destroy the Christian Faith of Others
    5. Make the World a Better Place
    6. Correct Common Misconceptions About Christianity
    7. Boost One's Ego
    8. Prove That the Christian God Exists
    9. Take Swipes at Those Who Disagree
    10. Share One's Knowledge About Christianity and the Bible

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Re: Debating Then Complaining About Those Who Disagree

Post #2

Post by benchwarmer »

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

I'm not sure it was a great idea to single out another member in this fashion, I'll let the mods decide if that was kosher or not.

Anyways, to the actual question:

1. Have fun! - Yes. It's quite fun to learn other perspectives, learn how to debate ideas, discuss positions, and of course poke holes in ideas I find ridiculous :)

4. Destroy the Christian Faith of Others - No, not exactly. I have no desire to destroy anyone's faith, but I'm happy to challenge it and perhaps make them think about why they really believe what they do.

6. Correct common misconceptions about Christianity - Oddly, I do this from time to time even though I'm not a Christian now. I don't like it when people obviously misrepresent others - though this can be tricky. The really ironic thing is when I end up 'correcting' Christians about what the religion actually teaches. It's clear some have not read the entire Bible, nor connected the dots on some of the conflicting concepts therein. Good clean fun all around really.

10. Share one's knowledge about Christianity and the Bible. - Similar to (6). Some theist debaters make the fatal mistake of thinking they know more about Christianity than many of the non-theist debaters here. Time and time again it becomes clear that many non-theists are very well versed in both the Bible and Christianity. Many of us de-converted in the process of trying to become 'better' Christians. i.e. studying the Bible and our denomination(s).

My additions:
11. Clear up misconceptions about science, especially in regards to its intersection with religious stories.

12. Enjoy reading the thoughts and ideas of those obviously much smarter than I.

13. Pointlessly amassing tokens to one day spend in the store that Otseng is going to build so I can buy me a t-shirt that says "I came, I debated, I went around in circles - wait... where did I get this t-shirt".

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Re: Debating Then Complaining About Those Who Disagree

Post #3

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 2 by benchwarmer]

Thanks for the response.

I'd say my second-most important reason to debate here is to make the world a better place. Christianity is at the root of a lot of social problems.

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Post #4

Post by Overcomer »

Jagella wrote:
Overcomer obviously has a different reason to debate here. It appears that he has little tolerance for disagreement especially anything that's unflattering to his Christian faith. I'm guessing that he's here to evangelize and wants people to say good things about his brand of Christianity. If he doesn't get it, then he gets upset.
First of all, I'm a "she", not a "he".

Secondly, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with Christianity. I have a problem with people who are rude, unpleasant, insulting, demeaning, unreasonable, difficult, etc. I don't think there's any need to be any of those things. I commented on the fact that your posts express extreme hatred for anything to do with God, the Bible, Christianity or Christians. And I realize I invited your personal attack on me by doing that. But can you deny that you hate these things and offer evidence to the contrary, because I can point out thread after thread after thread where you display it.

Thirdly, once again you are "guessing" at what Christians believe and what they think and do by suggesting that I am here to convert everyone and I only want to hear good things about my beliefs. If I wanted the latter, I certainly wouldn't come here. The fact that I do participate here proves that you're wrong.

As for converting people, that's not my job. That is between the individual and the Holy Spirit. I come here because I think it's important that people understand what those of us who are orthodox Christians (small "o") believe and why we believe it because, quite frankly, so many people -- you included, Jagella -- completely misunderstand us and our beliefs. Sadly, you seem unwilling to even consider them.

I also realize that there are others who read the posts here who might be open to considering that we aren't all the evil people you make us out to be and that some of the things we say make sense.

You insist you're a happy atheist. Well, then, why don't you sound happy? You come across as angry, bitter, full of hatred. And if you think you're going to make this world a better place by being that way, then you are sadly mistaken. And if you want to make your point of view respectable as you claim, then try being respectful when you present it.

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Re: Debating Then Complaining About Those Who Disagree

Post #5

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

I like to note that it should be common to complain (while not really useful) about the opposition's inability to be reasonable when the discussion has been running for a while.

In particular, the complaining is useless and obstructing discussion when it is presented by itself only.

After a while, in discussion, one may see this:
Reasons... then proclaiming victory
Reasons... then admitting defeat
Reasons... then complaining about unreasonable opposition
...

:study: :D 8-)
I'm cool! :) - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!

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Post #6

Post by Jagella »

Overcomer wrote:First of all, I'm a "she", not a "he".
Thanks for the correction. It can be hard to discern a person's gender online. A lot of people have thought that I'm a woman, for example. Maybe it's my name: the "a" at the end makes the name look female.
I have a problem with people who are rude, unpleasant, insulting, demeaning, unreasonable, difficult, etc. I don't think there's any need to be any of those things.
I agree that such behavior has no place in a debate if it's directed at one's opponent. I've endured many such attacks and not just from you.
I commented on the fact that your posts express extreme hatred for anything to do with God, the Bible, Christianity or Christians.
Then you become upset if people don't say good things about your faith. If you perceive "extreme hatred" for your faith, then you object.

You should know that Christians are commanded to "rejoice in that day and leap for joy" (Luke 6:21-23 NRSV) when they feel they are reviled for their faith. I don't believe you are leaping for joy.
But can you deny that you hate these things and offer evidence to the contrary, because I can point out thread after thread after thread where you display it.
I do hate the harm that Christianity has done. Am I supposed to like that harm? Do you like it?
As for converting people, that's not my job. That is between the individual and the Holy Spirit. I come here because I think it's important that people understand what those of us who are orthodox Christians (small "o") believe and why we believe it...
It's odd that the Holy Spirit converts people but leaves explaining Christian belief to Christians. I think it's more reasonable to assume that the Holy Spirit would explain Christian belief to a convert. After all, how can anybody convert to Christianity if they don't know what they're supposed to believe?
...quite frankly, so many people -- you included, Jagella -- completely misunderstand us and our beliefs. Sadly, you seem unwilling to even consider them.
Who is "us"? Many different Christians have beliefs that differ from other Christians, and you don't speak for all Christians. You don't appear to be willing to consider the beliefs of those many Christians who disagree with you.
I also realize that there are others who read the posts here who might be open to considering that we aren't all the evil people you make us out to be and that some of the things we say make sense.
I keep being charged with "generalizing" Christians, something I've never done. You cannot post one such example because I never said it.
You insist you're a happy atheist. Well, then, why don't you sound happy? You come across as angry, bitter, full of hatred.
I'm not sure if I'm really what you think I am, or if you see me that way because I'm a critic of your faith. "What Jane says about Joe tells you more about Jane than about Joe." It seems to me that I'm never angry or hateful--I just tell people the truth, and they think the truth is "angry, bitter, full of hatred."
And if you think you're going to make this world a better place by being that way, then you are sadly mistaken.
Maybe, but didn't it work for America's founding fathers? No doubt George the Third reacted to the American Revolution like you're reacting to me.
And if you want to make your point of view respectable as you claim, then try being respectful when you present it.
In that case, you want me to respect your religion. If you want respect for it, then it may be a good idea to earn respect for it.

In any case, OC, I think what you're saying about me is sour grapes. You're losing the debate, and you can't take defeat.

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Re: Debating Then Complaining About Those Who Disagree

Post #7

Post by Jagella »

Aetixintro wrote:In particular, the complaining is useless and obstructing discussion when it is presented by itself only.

After a while, in discussion, one may see this:
Reasons... then proclaiming victory
Reasons... then admitting defeat
Reasons... then complaining about unreasonable opposition
I'm not sure if I've seen anybody admit defeat, but we've seen OC complain about the "unreasonable opposition." When people complain that way, it's a sure sign that they know they've lost the debate. Could you see a skeptic complaining about Christians the skeptic's debating as being "hateful" or "bitter" because they remain Christian? I'm just glad that I don't need to resort to those kinds of tactics.

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Post #8

Post by Overcomer »

jagella wrote:
I'm not sure if I've seen anybody admit defeat, but we've seen OC complain about the "unreasonable opposition." When people complain that way, it's a sure sign that they know they've lost the debate. Could you see a skeptic complaining about Christians the skeptic's debating as being "hateful" or "bitter" because they remain Christian? I'm just glad that I don't need to resort to those kinds of tactics.
I complained about rudeness, insults, mockery, etc. In other words, I complained about the manner of presentation that some people use here. If you see my request for respect for fellow human beings, regardless of their beliefs, as "admitting defeat", then so be it.

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Post #9

Post by Jagella »

Overcomer wrote:I complained about rudeness, insults, mockery, etc. In other words, I complained about the manner of presentation that some people use here. If you see my request for respect for fellow human beings, regardless of their beliefs, as "admitting defeat", then so be it.
Can you be more specific? Who or what is being mocked or insulted?

In any case, if I understand the rules correctly, we are allowed to attack arguments but not the person arguing.

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Re: Debating Then Complaining About Those Who Disagree

Post #10

Post by otseng »

benchwarmer wrote: 13. Pointlessly amassing tokens to one day spend in the store that Otseng is going to build so I can buy me a t-shirt that says "I came, I debated, I went around in circles - wait... where did I get this t-shirt".
Hey, not a bad idea!

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