Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

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DavidLeon
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Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

Post #1

Post by DavidLeon »

This is Woodstock 1969.

Image

It took place at the height of the 1968-1969 Hong Kong Flu which killed an estimated 1-4 million people. No masks. No hysteria. No lock down. No closing of businesses. Barely a mention in the nightly news. Lock down. I've done time so to me lock down has a specific meaning. Have we gone crazy?
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Re: Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

Post #2

Post by Overcomer »

If you're suggesting that just because the country wasn't shut down in the face of one pandemic, that means it shouldn't be in another, that makes no sense to me. If we can save lives by locking things down, then let's do it. It isn't a matter of one person risking his or her life by refusing to do so, it's a matter of one person risking the lives of many others by refusing to do so that makes it wrong to resist such orders.

And just for the record, the Hong Kong flu is considered the mildest of the types of flu that swept around the world at various times throughout the 20th century. It resulted in one million deaths worldwide and 100,000 deaths in the U.S. The number dead from COVID-19 is almost double that in the States right now and there is no end in sight.

Plus, the majority of people who died from the Hong Kong flu were over 50 -- not the age of the average Woodstock attendee. COVID-19, while more deadly for the elderly, doesn't confine itself to senior citizens by any means.

What we are seeing these days from younger people is a total disregard for other people's health as some of them continue to congregate without masks in huge numbers. By doing that they are being both stupid and selfish, putting not just themselves at risk, but many others. And that is indeed wrong.

So if staying home, avoiding others, and obeying the rules of hygiene laid out by experts are going to save lives, then let's just stop complaining about it and do it. If you take offense to the words "lock down", then refer to it as self-isolation which indicates the choice in the matter.

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Re: Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

Post #3

Post by DavidLeon »

Overcomer wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:42 pmIf you're suggesting that just because the country wasn't shut down in the face of one pandemic, that means it shouldn't be in another, that makes no sense to me.
Does it make sense to you that a country should be shut down because of any pandemic? It doesn't to me. What reason is there to shut down a country due to a pandemic?
Overcomer wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:42 pmIf we can save lives by locking things down, then let's do it. It isn't a matter of one person risking his or her life by refusing to do so, it's a matter of one person risking the lives of many others by refusing to do so that makes it wrong to resist such orders.
I don't think that there is anything wrong with taking precautions, the question I'm asking is intended to establish if the current reaction is crazy. There is a big difference between taking precautions and mass hysteria. During the Hong Kong flu masks were used by some places and not by others. We now know that those not wearing masks fared no worse than those wearing them. During the Spanish flu Philadelphia ignored the warnings of large gatherings while St. Louis heeded such warnings and the latter seemed to have fared better than the former. The Woodstock concert was attended by unprecedented numbers with no masks. The Spanish flu was not as contagious as this one and masks seem to have been used extensively.

Masks are only a minor nuisance and large public gatherings are unnecessary, but we don't see these sorts of issues being discussed. We only see mass hysteria. The media and public consensus. Seems a better indicator of mass hysteria than sensible precautions. I don't so much want to know what the media and public consensus is as much as I want to know why it is. Especially when it goes beyond masks and large gatherings. I'm not at the point where I disagree, I'm at the point where I'm asking why? If the answer is that by doing this we can save lives that's no answer. It's conjecture at best, and you could say if we hold our breath and stand on our heads we could save lives but that doesn't make it so. What is the data? If you don't know any more than I do then . . .
Overcomer wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:42 pmAnd just for the record, the Hong Kong flu is considered the mildest of the types of flu that swept around the world at various times throughout the 20th century. It resulted in one million deaths worldwide and 100,000 deaths in the U.S. The number dead from COVID-19 is almost double that in the States right now and there is no end in sight.
It's difficult to estimate either. The Hong Kong flu is estimated to have killed 1-4 million globally. That's a pretty sizable margin of error. COVID-19, likewise, right now stands at about 843,000. The seasonal flu kills from 291,000 to 646,000 annually but immunity has built up. The immunity to COVID-19, being new, hasn't built up as with the flu. Of course the argument is that until the immunity does build up it will continue on it's present course and the precautions we may be taking, are possibly more harmful and may be only prolonging the illness.

In April of this year the death rate per million for the USA was 559 while the death rate for Sweden, who seemed to have a more sensible approach, was at 576. As of August the number was 57 per 100,000 in Sweden. 50 per 100,000 in the US and 70 in the UK. Sweden fared considerably worse than their neighbors, but really, all of this data of which I speak is extremely difficult to analyze. The only thing for sure right now is that taking a rigid idealistic approach in any direction is unwise. Except for, I suggest, mass hysteria.
Overcomer wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:42 pmPlus, the majority of people who died from the Hong Kong flu were over 50 -- not the age of the average Woodstock attendee. COVID-19, while more deadly for the elderly, doesn't confine itself to senior citizens by any means.
Neither did the Hong Kong flu. Reports of people in their 90's doing well with the current virus and people under 50 being devastated are common. Many cases of COVID-19 are minor and I assume the same applies to the seasonal as well as the Spanish and Hong Kong. So, again, what damage did the large gathering at Woodstock create?
Overcomer wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:42 pmWhat we are seeing these days from younger people is a total disregard for other people's health as some of them continue to congregate without masks in huge numbers. By doing that they are being both stupid and selfish, putting not just themselves at risk, but many others. And that is indeed wrong.
If true. Masks in the Hong Kong flu proved to be of no benefit whatsoever. So people point their finger at people not wearing masks with no data to support it. In fact in contradiction of it. This suggests mass hysteria which can easily be used by the media and governments.

Last edited by DavidLeon on Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

Post #4

Post by Aetixintro »

My 2 cents:
It irritates me that deaths of elderly and vulnerable are reported this way.
They have always passed away due to flu or other.

It would be radically different if we reported 170 000 deaths by war in Afghanistan, especially US citizens.

What this comes down to is the mortality rate, how deadly the SARS-CoV2 virus is.

Check out fatality rate for the disease here:
https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid.

By the way, since all are going to be touched by the CoV 2, I think it's wrong to use lockdown.
They could rather been better at doing the medicine studies and used medication and well known strategies for protecting the elderly and the vulnerable.
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Re: Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

Post #5

Post by koko »

DavidLeon wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:38 pm This is Woodstock 1969.

https://i.postimg.cc/xCZGT7rk/woodstock.jpg


It took place at the height of the 1968-1969 Hong Kong Flu which killed an estimated 1-4 million people. No masks. No hysteria. No lock down. No closing of businesses. Barely a mention in the nightly news. Lock down. I've done time so to me lock down has a specific meaning. Have we gone crazy?

HKF was a different dance altogether. Antibiotics largely worked, the vast majority of the fatalities were seniors, deaths in the USA were small compared to the rest of the world, and a vaccine was found in about 3 to 4 months.

The 1918 flu was far worse. This is why extensive preventive measures were necessary to deal with it and why we need to resort to the same efforts today. When these seemingly obstructive measures were taken they succeeded in mitigating the spread of the virus. Once those efforts were relaxed the virus spread again - witness what has happened on college campuses in recent weeks. I don't want anyone to die or to be debilitated. This is why I support the government's measures in reducing the possibility of contamination.

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Re: Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

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Re: Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

Post #7

Post by AgnosticBoy »

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #1]
It's hard to see how a lock down is the right thing when you see the very leaders pushing for it not following their own supposed standard. For instance, Nancy Pelosi was caught on camera having her hair done at a hair salon that was supposed to be shut down. You ask, have "we" gone crazy and my answer to that is no. The problem is that the leaders are trying to control the population for their own agenda, perhaps political agenda.

If the leaders who have the power to mandate lockdowns don't even impose lockdowns on themselves, then why should I think that it is the right thing for me to do, especially when locking myself down creates its own harm?

People need to wake up and realize that institutions that are heavily rooted in POWER (staying in office) and money, hardly ever cares about the population. That goes for Republicans and Democrats.

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Re: Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

Post #8

Post by nobspeople »

DavidLeon wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:38 pm This is Woodstock 1969.

Image

It took place at the height of the 1968-1969 Hong Kong Flu which killed an estimated 1-4 million people. No masks. No hysteria. No lock down. No closing of businesses. Barely a mention in the nightly news. Lock down. I've done time so to me lock down has a specific meaning. Have we gone crazy?

I think the shut down should have been for allowing the medical community to prepare for a massive influx of sick people that would eventually happen. Having many family members in the hospital community, once the amount of cases seemed to plateau earlier in the year, hospitals started dismantling their COVID units, seemingly thinking 'everything will be getting better'. Which made absolutely no sense to me. People staying 'locked down' for a few months doesn't mean the COVID is magically going to disappear!
Without a vaccine, this has to run its course sooner or later.

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Re: Lock Down! Is This Right Or Wrong?

Post #9

Post by Purple Knight »

It really depends on whether lives are more valuable than other things, including freedom.

If lives really are more valuable, then sure.

But we don't ban fishing, the most dangerous sport. We don't ban cars. We don't actually tear the world apart just because "if it saves even one life..."

Part of the problem is that we're taught to believe life is really more valuable than anything but no one actually acts like it.

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