Morality and The Fabric of the Universe

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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Purple Knight
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Morality and The Fabric of the Universe

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Post by Purple Knight »

Is it possible, even in theory, for one universe to exist where murder is wrong, and another universe to exist where murder (or any other thing that is absolutely unequivocally wrong in one universe) to be morally permissible in this other universe?

If you're religious, and you believe that God simply picks what is moral and immoral, you might say that this requires the second universe to have a God that simply selected differently. (Or perhaps God can choose for each universe. If God is truly all-powerful in that it is beyond logic, it can simply make both choices, and ostensibly this could create two universes.)
But I have a subset of questions specifically for the religious who believe that God's choices create moral and immoral - that God dictates morality.

1. Is it possible for God to lie about his choices? Let's say God never actually picked for lying to be wrong. He selected that lying should be morally permissible. He then proceeds to misinform people as to the moral nature of the universe. I'm not asking if this is what happened in our universe; I am asking if this is a possibility, knowing the power of God to simply pick which actions are going to be moral and immoral.
2. Is it possible for God to change his mind and/or simply judge by the person, and not his actions? I am not asking if it is possible for God to forgive thievery (I know it is in the established lore). I am asking if God can decide that thievery is not morally wrong when that special fellow does it, or that I sin when I pick my nose simply because it's me, but that other fellow may pick his nose and it isn't a sin. Or perhaps God could decide on the spot that picking one's nose is now a sin and not tell anybody.
3. Does God have to be fair? I'm not asking if God is fair (the official lore says he is and that's that)... I'm asking if he has to be. In other words, is there a deeper magic - a higher principle that is in fact higher than God - that, for example, if some person was not informed or was misinformed about right and wrong, they wouldn't be culpable if they did wrong?

I also have a subset of questions for people who do not believe that God simply dictates morality. This includes the areligious and those who simply don't believe God has the power to do that.

1. Where does morality come from?
2. If just one sentient being existed in a universe, would it be possible for it to be immoral?

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Re: Morality and The Fabric of the Universe

Post #2

Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:48 pm Is it possible, even in theory, for one universe to exist where murder is wrong, and another universe to exist where murder (or any other thing that is absolutely unequivocally wrong in one universe) to be morally permissible in this other universe?
Certainly. At one time in our universe its god, the god of Abraham, convinced all his followers that slavery---the owning of another human being---was moral. Since then, for the most part his followers have rejected slavery as being moral. So I can easily see another universe without the god of Abraham where slavery was immoral from the very outset.


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Last edited by Miles on Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Morality and The Fabric of the Universe

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Miles wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:04 pmCertainly. In our universe its god, the god of Abraham, had convinced all his followers that slavery---the owning of another human being---was moral. Now since then, for the most part his followers have rejected such a position and rejected slavery as being immoral. So I can easily see another universe without the god of Abraham where slavery was immoral from the very outset.
Now I want to know if it is even possible, even just in theory, for a universe to exist in which slavery was never wrong.

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Re: Morality and The Fabric of the Universe

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Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:04 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:04 pmCertainly. In our universe its god, the god of Abraham, had convinced all his followers that slavery---the owning of another human being---was moral. Now since then, for the most part his followers have rejected such a position and rejected slavery as being immoral. So I can easily see another universe without the god of Abraham where slavery was immoral from the very outset.
Now I want to know if it is even possible, even just in theory, for a universe to exist in which slavery was never wrong.
Why not?

According to the Bible and Hebrew belief where god made and rules the universe (several verses), does not change (Malachi 3:6), and finds slavery to be moral (Leviticus 25:44 + others), slavery "was never wrong," which wold have included everywhere. Of course, if you don't subscribe to the Bible you can still concoct any possible moral universe you like. Imagination is your friend.


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Re: Morality and The Fabric of the Universe

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Miles wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:26 pmOf course, if you don't subscribe to the Bible you can still concoct any possible moral universe you like.
So you can conceive of a moral universe in which murder is just perfectly fine? And you believe that universe to be possible (in other words, non-contradictory) even if only in theory?

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Re: Morality and The Fabric of the Universe

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Purple Knight wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:20 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:26 pmOf course, if you don't subscribe to the Bible you can still concoct any possible moral universe you like.
So you can conceive of a moral universe in which murder is just perfectly fine? And you believe that universe to be possible (in other words, non-contradictory) even if only in theory?
Only where its supreme ruler declared it as such, just as slavery was. However, as with slavery, in my eyes it wouldn't be moral at all.

That you could concoct a universe where murder is considered moral doesn't mean I have to agree that it is.



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Re: Morality and The Fabric of the Universe

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Miles wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:10 pmThat you could concoct a universe where murder is considered moral doesn't mean I have to agree that it is.
Okay, good, so we have your answer: Murder is wrong in every possible universe. Slavery is wrong in every possible universe. Now we're getting somewhere.

The question now is where that comes from. Is it woven into the fabric of reality so deeply that any conceivable reality would have those moral rules?

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Re: Morality and The Fabric of the Universe

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[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

In Islam God said
عَنِ النبيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عليه وسلَّمَ، فِيما رَوَى عَنِ اللهِ تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى أنَّهُ قالَ: يا عِبَادِي إنِّي حَرَّمْتُ الظُّلْمَ علَى نَفْسِي، وَجَعَلْتُهُ بيْنَكُمْ مُحَرَّمًا، فلا تَظَالَمُوا، يا عِبَادِي كُلُّكُمْ ضَالٌّ إلَّا مَن هَدَيْتُهُ، فَاسْتَهْدُونِي أَهْدِكُمْ، يا عِبَادِي كُلُّكُمْ جَائِعٌ، إلَّا مَن أَطْعَمْتُهُ، فَاسْتَطْعِمُونِي أُطْعِمْكُمْ، يا عِبَادِي كُلُّكُمْ عَارٍ، إلَّا مَن كَسَوْتُهُ، فَاسْتَكْسُونِي أَكْسُكُمْ، يا عِبَادِي إنَّكُمْ تُخْطِئُونَ باللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ، وَأَنَا أَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيعًا، فَاسْتَغْفِرُونِي أَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ، يا عِبَادِي إنَّكُمْ لَنْ تَبْلُغُوا ضَرِّي فَتَضُرُّونِي وَلَنْ تَبْلُغُوا نَفْعِي، فَتَنْفَعُونِي، يا عِبَادِي لو أنَّ أَوَّلَكُمْ وَآخِرَكُمْ وإنْسَكُمْ وَجِنَّكُمْ كَانُوا علَى أَتْقَى قَلْبِ رَجُلٍ وَاحِدٍ مِنكُمْ، ما زَادَ ذلكَ في مُلْكِي شيئًا، يا عِبَادِي لو أنَّ أَوَّلَكُمْ وَآخِرَكُمْ وإنْسَكُمْ وَجِنَّكُمْ كَانُوا علَى أَفْجَرِ قَلْبِ رَجُلٍ وَاحِدٍ، ما نَقَصَ ذلكَ مِن مُلْكِي شيئًا، يا عِبَادِي لو أنَّ أَوَّلَكُمْ وَآخِرَكُمْ وإنْسَكُمْ وَجِنَّكُمْ قَامُوا في صَعِيدٍ وَاحِدٍ فَسَأَلُونِي فأعْطَيْتُ كُلَّ إنْسَانٍ مَسْأَلَتَهُ، ما نَقَصَ ذلكَ ممَّا عِندِي إلَّا كما يَنْقُصُ المِخْيَطُ إذَا أُدْخِلَ البَحْرَ، يا عِبَادِي إنَّما هي أَعْمَالُكُمْ أُحْصِيهَا لَكُمْ، ثُمَّ أُوَفِّيكُمْ إيَّاهَا، فمَن وَجَدَ خَيْرًا، فَلْيَحْمَدِ اللَّهَ وَمَن وَجَدَ غيرَ ذلكَ، فلا يَلُومَنَّ إلَّا نَفْسَهُ.
https://dorar.net/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D9 ... d+hkd+pvlj
1. Is it possible for God to lie about his choices? Let's say God never actually picked for lying to be wrong. He selected that lying should be morally permissible. He then proceeds to misinform people as to the moral nature of the universe. I'm not asking if this is what happened in our universe; I am asking if this is a possibility, knowing the power of God to simply pick which actions are going to be moral and immoral.
2. Is it possible for God to change his mind and/or simply judge by the person, and not his actions? I am not asking if it is possible for God to forgive thievery (I know it is in the established lore). I am asking if God can decide that thievery is not morally wrong when that special fellow does it, or that I sin when I pick my nose simply because it's me, but that other fellow may pick his nose and it isn't a sin. Or perhaps God could decide on the spot that picking one's nose is now a sin and not tell anybody.
3. Does God have to be fair? I'm not asking if God is fair (the official lore says he is and that's that)... I'm asking if he has to be. In other words, is there a deeper magic - a higher principle that is in fact higher than God - that, for example, if some person was not informed or was misinformed about right and wrong, they wouldn't be culpable if they did wrong?
1- I will start with 3 and the answer is yes because God said he forbade himself from being unjust and made it forbidden to us.

2- Can god change his mind ? yes he can but he won't because its against his nature and its considered to be a deficiency in his characteristics. If god has secret rules that we don't know of then how he can be just?. So god has always to be just. Example ( do people who never heard of god but acknowledged a superior being but never knew how to pray or do right or wrong go to hell?!. no they are going to be judged according to their understanding and god will judge every one according to what he know and what he did.

3- If god changes his laws without informing us it will go against point 1 and return its not applicable but he can change a certain rule through a revelation to his prophet but since prophet Muhammad was the last prophet god will not change any rule until the end of days.

If there is a higher authority than god then the current god is not god but a mediator so its logically impossible.

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