Murder

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Murder

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Would you murder someone if you were guaranteed (through whatever means appropriate to you) that you could get away with it?
Why or why not?

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Re: Murder

Post #21

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:56 am [Replying to tam in post #19]
I'm sure they've been told.
And yet, that doesn't change the fact that your opinion of them (not being christian) means zero to those they assault with 'god's hate'.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it probably does mean something to at least some of the people who the WBB 'assault' with (their own) hate, to have others calling them out as not being Christian and/or as being wrong about God.
I am the only Christian who responded on this thread... and THIS Christian gave you a completely different answer than the one you are espousing.
I was a christian for decades. I've been to countless christian churches, spoke to and with countless church leaders, been to bible studies, fasted, participated in more communions than I care to try to count and can tell you you're wrong if you say people don't become christian out of fear.
What does your personal experience (and your claims about others' experiences) have to do with me and the answer that I gave regarding myself?

I did not make a claim about other people. Other people can speak for themselves. I made a claim about myself.
There's no other reason to devote one's life, time, energy and money (oh yeah - that money) to an invisible man in the sky unless you fear going to hell. Over time, you may grow to 'love' that invisible worthless magician, but initially, you become christian out of fear.
Perhaps you had no other reason, perhaps sadly that is the only reason religion gave to you (causing you harm, as it causes other as well).

I did and do have another reason (as stated in the previous post). I have no part in religion though. Had I had part in religion, I might feel the same (unless and/or until I heard my Lord call me to come out of 'her' and come to Him instead). Because religion DOES use fear as a tool to keep people in 'her'. So I understand why you think what you think, but being in religion and being in Christ are two different things.


Are you just trying to say that doing something out of fear is insincere?
I'm saying if you join up with god and claim it to be out of love, not only is that insincere but also a lie.
See that is what I thought you were saying, so I will refer back to my previous responses in the previous posts
Ah... you mean being told by other people. Well, sure, I've heard that... but so what?
So what? You've been deceived to devoting your life to 'christ' out of fear and that's not wrong? I guess if the ends justify the means.
Since you seem to have bypassed everything that followed the 'so what', I will repeat: just because men teach something does not mean that they are correct, or that I should or even do believe them. I do not.

The cornerstone of my faith is Christ.
And christ saves you from hell. Thus, the FEAR of hell is the ultimate cornerstone of your faith.
Absolutely false. For reasons stated previously, and also below:
I don't even believe in 'hell' (the traditional doctrine of a place of eternal torment; there is no such thing).
Ah. That makes sense. Become a christian then happily 'not believe' in hell in order to avoid it. This makes your responses make so much more sense now. Pickin-n-choosin what to believe.

So you wouldn't murder because....?
Asked and answered.

And I do not believe in 'hell' (the traditional doctrine of hell as a place of eternal torment) because that doctrine is false. The traditional doctrine of eternal torment in hell (as with many traditions of men) is false. I don't know if there is a need to get into that on this thread. There are many on the forum dedicated to just that topic. Regardless, fear of 'hell' is obviously not a factor in my faith.



Peace again to you.

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Re: Murder

Post #22

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to tam in post #21]
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make
Well, you said "No Christian claims God is hate." and yet these christians do just that. So either you're wrong, or you or they aren't a real christian. Or both.
What does your personal experience (and your claims about others' experiences) have to do with me and the answer that I gave regarding myself?
The same as your experiences have to do with others here. Sharing experiences and learning. Why else are you here?
I did and do have another reason (as stated in the previous post).
I've not seen anyone who became a christian for any other reason than fearing hell. Therefore, I can only say I don't believe you claim one iota. But then again, maybe you're not a real christian? That would make the most sense.
Since you seem to have bypassed everything that followed the 'so what', I will repeat: just because men teach something does not mean that they are correct, or that I should or even do believe them. I do not.
When someone says 'so what', typically there's nothing worthy past that, as the 'so what' is normally passive aggressive tripe.
So I'll address your 'point':
You're correct in the bolded section above. At some point you need to accept you don't understand everything and rely on trusted sources (which includes people). Some trust the bible to be true ( :lol: ) but that doesn't mean they understand everything.
When you first read the bible, did you miraculously understand everything it said?
No.
So you relied on others to assist with your understanding.
Which is what people do, especially with something so esoteric and non-tactile as a belief system.
So, when you first read the bible, you reached out and found trusted sources to come to the belief you have now. So you did, in fact, believed some of what others have told you.
So what you're doing is looking down from above at those that did the same thing you did and claiming they're not christians. That seems a rather elitist thing to do.
Absolutely false (The cornerstone of my faith is Christ.
And christ saves you from hell. Thus, the FEAR of hell is the ultimate cornerstone of your faith).
You can say it all you want, but it won't change the fact that if christ is your cornerstone, and believing in him saves you from hell, you, in fact, believed in him to save you from hell. Thus your absolute cornerstone of your 'faith' is fear of hell. It's obvious no matter how much you stomp your foot and say otherwise (if you're a real christian).
Asked and answered.
Then it appears our conversation is at an end.

Happy posting!

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Re: Murder

Post #23

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
nobspeople wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:53 am [Replying to tam in post #21]
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make
Well, you said "No Christian claims God is hate." and yet these christians do just that. So either you're wrong, or you or they aren't a real christian. Or both.
The last thing you said was this:

And yet, that doesn't change the fact that your opinion of them (not being christian) means zero to those they assault with 'god's hate'.

I was questioning the point from that comment (though I also added: but it probably does mean something to at least some of the people who the WBB 'assault' with (their own) hate, to have others calling them out as not being Christian and/or as being wrong about God.)

What does your personal experience (and your claims about others' experiences) have to do with me and the answer that I gave regarding myself?
The same as your experiences have to do with others here. Sharing experiences and learning. Why else are you here?
No, sorry. You are using your experiences (and your claims of others' experiences) to TELL ME what I believe and what I feel, to in fact override what I have said about myself. That doesn't sound like sharing experiences to me. That sounds like rejecting any experience that is different than your own. Please note that I did not try and tell you what you felt and what you believed.
I did and do have another reason (as stated in the previous post).
I've not seen anyone who became a christian for any other reason than fearing hell.
Do you think that because you have not seen someone do something, no one has ever done it?

Does that make sense?
Therefore, I can only say I don't believe you claim one iota. But then again, maybe you're not a real christian? That would make the most sense.
You can believe whatever you want; it does not change what is true. Why does someone else's experience matter so much that you have to argue against it, to begin with? Is it some kind of threat that another person(s) might follow Christ and God, for a reason other than 'fear of hell'?
Since you seem to have bypassed everything that followed the 'so what', I will repeat: just because men teach something does not mean that they are correct, or that I should or even do believe them. I do not.
When someone says 'so what', typically there's nothing worthy past that, as the 'so what' is normally passive aggressive tripe.
So you didn't read past it because of what you thought would follow. Maybe there is other stuff you did not read in this thread from me, that if you did read it, you might better understand the things I have said.
So I'll address your 'point':
You're correct in the bolded section above.
Okay then. That was the point.
At some point you need to accept you don't understand everything and rely on trusted sources (which includes people). Some trust the bible to be true ( :lol: ) but that doesn't mean they understand everything.
When you first read the bible, did you miraculously understand everything it said?
No.
Correct, as to not understanding everything written (even now).

I will also state here that I did not consider men to be trusted sources. In fact, one of the reasons I wanted to read the bible (and I was in my mid-late twenties when I did that) was because I did not want to be fooled by men and their claims about 'what the bible says'.
So you relied on others to assist with your understanding.
I ended up accepting a bible study (with jws), but there were things that did not add up in their teachings, and they also put their slant on what was written (same as every other religion). So I ended that study, to study on my own. I also ended up setting the bible aside altogether for a while, so I could just listen (to God, to wherever God would lead me - which was to His Son), and let CHRIST teach me what was true.
So, when you first read the bible, you reached out and found trusted sources to come to the belief you have now.
Nope.

I had to set everything aside that others taught (and that I had believed just from media and from other people said), and allow Christ to teach me and lead me, to build my faith upon Him.
So you did, in fact, believed some of what others have told you.
So what you're doing is looking down from above at those that did the same thing you did and claiming they're not christians. That seems a rather elitist thing to do.
I'm not doing that at all.
Absolutely false (The cornerstone of my faith is Christ.
And christ saves you from hell. Thus, the FEAR of hell is the ultimate cornerstone of your faith).
You can say it all you want, but it won't change the fact that if christ is your cornerstone, and believing in him saves you from hell, you, in fact, believed in him to save you from hell.


Except we have already been through this for you to see that this is not true of me, just re-read the last bit of our previous exchange (from my last post).
Thus your absolute cornerstone of your 'faith' is fear of hell. It's obvious no matter how much you stomp your foot and say otherwise (if you're a real christian).
I'm not the one stomping her foot, nobspeople. I know what I feel. I know what my faith is based upon. I know why I would not murder someone else even if I could get away with it.

You're the one protesting.
Asked and answered.
Then it appears our conversation is at an end.
Sure.

Peace to you, and to you all.

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Re: Murder

Post #24

Post by nobspeople »

tam wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:21 pm Peace to you,
nobspeople wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:53 am [Replying to tam in post #21]
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make
Well, you said "No Christian claims God is hate." and yet these christians do just that. So either you're wrong, or you or they aren't a real christian. Or both.
The last thing you said was this:

And yet, that doesn't change the fact that your opinion of them (not being christian) means zero to those they assault with 'god's hate'.

I was questioning the point from that comment (though I also added: but it probably does mean something to at least some of the people who the WBB 'assault' with (their own) hate, to have others calling them out as not being Christian and/or as being wrong about God.)

What does your personal experience (and your claims about others' experiences) have to do with me and the answer that I gave regarding myself?
The same as your experiences have to do with others here. Sharing experiences and learning. Why else are you here?
No, sorry. You are using your experiences (and your claims of others' experiences) to TELL ME what I believe and what I feel, to in fact override what I have said about myself. That doesn't sound like sharing experiences to me. That sounds like rejecting any experience that is different than your own. Please note that I did not try and tell you what you felt and what you believed.
I did and do have another reason (as stated in the previous post).
I've not seen anyone who became a christian for any other reason than fearing hell.
Do you think that because you have not seen someone do something, no one has ever done it?

Does that make sense?
Therefore, I can only say I don't believe you claim one iota. But then again, maybe you're not a real christian? That would make the most sense.
You can believe whatever you want; it does not change what is true. Why does someone else's experience matter so much that you have to argue against it, to begin with? Is it some kind of threat that another person(s) might follow Christ and God, for a reason other than 'fear of hell'?
Since you seem to have bypassed everything that followed the 'so what', I will repeat: just because men teach something does not mean that they are correct, or that I should or even do believe them. I do not.
When someone says 'so what', typically there's nothing worthy past that, as the 'so what' is normally passive aggressive tripe.
So you didn't read past it because of what you thought would follow. Maybe there is other stuff you did not read in this thread from me, that if you did read it, you might better understand the things I have said.
So I'll address your 'point':
You're correct in the bolded section above.
Okay then. That was the point.
At some point you need to accept you don't understand everything and rely on trusted sources (which includes people). Some trust the bible to be true ( :lol: ) but that doesn't mean they understand everything.
When you first read the bible, did you miraculously understand everything it said?
No.
Correct, as to not understanding everything written (even now).

I will also state here that I did not consider men to be trusted sources. In fact, one of the reasons I wanted to read the bible (and I was in my mid-late twenties when I did that) was because I did not want to be fooled by men and their claims about 'what the bible says'.
So you relied on others to assist with your understanding.
I ended up accepting a bible study (with jws), but there were things that did not add up in their teachings, and they also put their slant on what was written (same as every other religion). So I ended that study, to study on my own. I also ended up setting the bible aside altogether for a while, so I could just listen (to God, to wherever God would lead me - which was to His Son), and let CHRIST teach me what was true.
So, when you first read the bible, you reached out and found trusted sources to come to the belief you have now.
Nope.

I had to set everything aside that others taught (and that I had believed just from media and from other people said), and allow Christ to teach me and lead me, to build my faith upon Him.
So you did, in fact, believed some of what others have told you.
So what you're doing is looking down from above at those that did the same thing you did and claiming they're not christians. That seems a rather elitist thing to do.
I'm not doing that at all.
Absolutely false (The cornerstone of my faith is Christ.
And christ saves you from hell. Thus, the FEAR of hell is the ultimate cornerstone of your faith).
You can say it all you want, but it won't change the fact that if christ is your cornerstone, and believing in him saves you from hell, you, in fact, believed in him to save you from hell.


Except we have already been through this for you to see that this is not true of me, just re-read the last bit of our previous exchange (from my last post).
Thus your absolute cornerstone of your 'faith' is fear of hell. It's obvious no matter how much you stomp your foot and say otherwise (if you're a real christian).
I'm not the one stomping her foot, nobspeople. I know what I feel. I know what my faith is based upon. I know why I would not murder someone else even if I could get away with it.

You're the one protesting.
Asked and answered.
Then it appears our conversation is at an end.
Sure.

Peace to you, and to you all.
No, the last thing I said was:
Then it appears our conversation is at an end.

Happy posting!

I stand by that.

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